Damascus-ing anyone else find it awful?

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Jan 18, 2011
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Not entirely sure where to post this. I apologize if it's the the wrong section. Not trolling just really asking.

I don't know why but for the life of me I can never see a damascus knife now a days and say, wow what a beauty.
They all look so... fake and synthetic. Most seem to be the same as etching.

Maybe it's my Japanese collection background.
To me folding of metals is quite beautiful, however it's beauty comes in it's subtleness. From far away it looks like a sharp piece of steel, but then as you get close you begin to see the grain from the folding and if the blacksmith is good enough, even manipulate the patterns.

Here are some pictures to show what I mean and what does not appeal to me:
Pictures removed due to sensitive user.
Examples I will have to write out, as most pictures end up being users here on blade forums:
One such place to look at them is here on a subforum for "Show us your damascus" under the CRK forum. Many knives exist there that present these characteristics.
* CRK blades using damascus in loose grain patterns, typically 1mm+ in width from one lamination line or folding line to another. Pretty much loose, this is often viewed as a flaw in Japanese swords, the looser the grain the more stress the folding or lamination lines will suffer and the easier it will be to break them. This is specially true in swords due to the much much higher stresses placed on the steel.
* Some if not most damacus production knives use a heavy black coating or etching to "visibly" show the damascus pattern. This is over kill. Why can they not use subtly enhance the lines, not make the knife into an unnatural look.
* Some damascus knives, particularly productions seem to be pieces of shaped steel layed on top, then forge welded by hand or machine (likely machine, stamping or air hammer due to the cost).

Issues (reworded, sorry):
-Grain is loose on most of these knives, looks as if pieces of steel were shaped then just placed on top of one another then pressed by hammering or other machinery. Looks very synethetic.
- The further etching or coating to contrast the patterns me to is not needed and makes it very gaudy and not in a good sense at all like gold is gaudy.
- The lack of folding, which requires far greater talent compared to lamination.

This is the hada (grain) of some Japanese swords, the grain is contrasted using scanners+photo editing, in reality they look much much more subtle and beautiful. This contrasting/editing is done to make activities pop out asap.
Hada.jpg


This is one example of a non modified picture, although not 100% the best of pictures (From Nihonto.ca):
jigane.jpg

Here is another (From Moderntosho.com):
yasumitsu5.jpg


Here's an Indian piece, not particularly antique from the 18th century so meh~ (From Ashokaarts.com):
indian-kirash-or-kirach-sword-with-pattern-welded-damascus-blade---fine-antique-oriental-arms-and-armour-swords-and-weapons-from-wwwashokaarts-7-2629.jpg


A few old antique blades
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/9809/verhoeven-9809.html
Verhoeven-9809.fig.2.lg.gif



I do not hate this kind of steel, I just feel a lack of a human touch to many of them. Almost as if they were churned out by machine instead of hand worked on like customs do.
 
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I know what you mean. I enjoy the subtle look. I picked up a kershaw double cross in damascus and unless your holding the knife, you cannot even tell the blade is damascus. There's a maker near me who does his skinners the same way. I wish more makers chose to be subtle with it.
 
Well to be fair, the Damascus on the sebenzas you show is stainless. I'm not sure the pattern on stainless Damascus can be "subtle", so that may not be a good example.


But yes, I do understand where you're coming from.
 
So, is your criticism based on the acid etching of the more "Americanized" damascus? Wouldn't the Japanese steel in your examples look similar if subjected to this process?

IMO, with the quality of steel materials currently available to knifemakers today, damascus is 99% for visual appeal anyway. Do you agree?
 
Well to be fair, the Damascus on the sebenzas you show is stainless. I'm not sure the pattern on stainless Damascus can be "subtle", so that may not be a good example.


But yes, I do understand where you're coming from.

Yes I know very well the difference in how grain looks with changing of steel, but I don't think they come from the grinder or forge looking like that, they are clearly etched or coated. The etching and coating is what makes them look awful to me.

So, is your criticism based on the acid etching of the more "Americanized" damascus? Wouldn't the Japanese steel in your examples look similar if subjected to this process?

Yes that is correct my main problem is with the acid etching or coating, but after that it's also the very synthetic look to the damascus patter almost as if they put a few pieces of shaped steel, then pressed them or forged them. Most are very loose in grain. (well lamination)
 
Well to be fair, the Damascus on the sebenzas you show is stainless. I'm not sure the pattern on stainless Damascus can be "subtle", so that may not be a good example.


.
^^This^^

Also i happen to like the patterns that makers put into their Damascus, to me it really looks cool and it takes a level of talent to bring out unique patterns like that.

BTW- The top two Sebenzas are mine.
 
^^This^^

Also i happen to like the patterns that makers put into their Damascus, to me it really looks cool and it takes a level of talent to bring out unique patterns like that.

BTW- The top two Sebenzas are mine.

Well if I am not mistaken, they are actually not very difficult to make you just need to machinery. They honestly look like they have been laminated, in other words the pieces of steel are shaped, then pressed by forging or other machinery.
It's kind of like a kid making a collage, except in this case it's steel and requires welding not gluing.

It is not like some custom makers that will actually fold the steel over to create the patterns, but not only that but also know when and how to fold them so that the lamination is welded properly and not split or remain loose. That in my mind requires true talent.

Edit: Your two particular knives are not the only knives that I find awful, it is not personal or anything so don't be mad that I used your knives :(

I am still a fan of the handles and manufacturing tolerances on the machining.

Edit2: I've reworded my OP, I think I was not explaining very well.
 
You're just looking in the wrong places, that's all. Murray Carter is a custom knifemaker who hand forges his damascus billets using Tamahagane, SUS410 or S35C, White Steel #1, and silver nickel.

5989277576_e2fbe8002a_z.jpg


5822896807_50376a6794_z.jpg
 
The stainless Damascus on the sebenzas is made by Devin Thomas. He first got interested in Damascus after learning about it in Japan, and later came back to the states and started making it - the same way the Japanese do it. Forging and folding the steel until he gets the desired patterns.


Sorry, but not all "awful" Damascus you see is cheaply made laminated steel.

Well if I am not mistaken, they are actually not very difficult to make you just need to machinery. They honestly look like they have been laminated, in other words the pieces of steel are shaped, then pressed by forging or other machinery.
It's kind of like a kid making a collage, except in this case it's steel and requires welding not gluing.

It is not like some custom makers that will actually fold the steel over to create the patterns, but not only that but also know when and how to fold them so that the lamination is welded properly and not split or remain loose. That in my mind requires true talent.

Edit: Your two particular knives are not the only knives that I find awful, it is not personal or anything so don't be mad that I used your knives :(

I am still a fan of the handles and manufacturing tolerances on the machining.

Edit2: I've reworded my OP, I think I was not explaining very well.
 
I agree with the OP I hate mosaic damascus, it looks to artificial, forced. But I love random, and twist. feathered is good to if it is done well
 
You're just looking in the wrong places, that's all. Murray Carter is a custom knifemaker who hand forges his damascus billets using Tamahagane, SUS410 or S35C, White Steel #1, and silver nickel.

5989277576_e2fbe8002a_z.jpg


5822896807_50376a6794_z.jpg

Oh I am somewhat familiar with his work, very beautiful pieces he makes. I was meaning to say the look of the pictures I posted in the OP, not of Murray or the line.

The stainless Damascus on the sebenzas is made by Devin Thomas. He first got interested in Damascus after learning about it in Japan, and later came back to the states and started making it - the same way the Japanese do it. Forging and folding the steel until he gets the desired patterns.


Sorry, but not all "awful" Damascus you see is cheaply made laminated steel.

Great to know, I still think the coating/etching just makes it look ugly. Sorry.

I know they are not all cheaply made, and I do apologize for that. I was sure Chris Reeves wouldn't dare allow that to happen on his knives, he seems to shoot for higher standards but that is the look that I am getting because of the finishing and the looseness of the grain. (compare the OP pictures with the ones on Devis Thomas' Damascus page:
http://www.devinthomas.com/damascusSteel.cfm

See a difference?
 
OK. So you hate damascus. Well, nobody forces you to look at it. Or buy it.

I happen to love damascus. Not all damascus appeals to me, but a lot does. So to answer your question: no, I don't find it awful.

Kind regards,

Jos
 
OK. So you hate damascus. Well, nobody forces you to look at it. Or buy it.

I happen to love damascus. Not all damascus appeals to me, but a lot does. So to answer your question: no, I don't find it awful.

Kind regards,

Jos

? I am not saying I hate damascus just the damascus look in the OP in the pictures I posted.
I understand it's my opinion, and I fully am aware some people love the look. I was simply stating my opinion, and unlike most posting my basis for my dislike.
 
I like most damascus. And I like the stainless sebenzas in your op. I get tired of plain steel sometimes, and in fact those damascus versions of the sebenza are about the only versions I would be interested in owning, since the plain S30V versions look a bit dull (as in boring) to me for the money.
 
Well here goes. I am with the OP all the way. I do not find any modern Damascus attractive. I like steel just plain thanks. I realize me and the OP are pretty much in the minority and I say knock yourselves out blacksmiths...full steam ahead. Me, I would much prefer, for example, the plain, stonewashed steel of the regular Sebenza.
 
I love damascus and would argue that the cr raindrop is not a simple one to produce, I don't care for the zebra but thats just asthetics. I do love the damascus bowie i have made by stek, 360layers of folded forged steels. beautiful and a terrific performer in the field as well.

also just a fyi, but it would only be common curtesy to ask the owner of the photos before posting them in your thread.

take it easy
cricket
 
Never gave this much thought....

I will...

OK, I have decided I like to have options. Even options that I do not currently like, because other people (including my future self) might.

FWIW I own no Damascus, and do not plan on getting any. But judging from the knife pictures I see posted, there are people that like both kinds, and if they are happy...it is not a bad thing.
 
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