Damascus not not good for a user knife?

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Grayzer86

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Well I was at an outdoor show today and am just curious here. I was looking at a table where a guy had some very nice knives he had made. However when another guy standing there asked if he used damascus a lady behind the table, possibly his wife or something, said that damascus looks pretty as a show piece but isnt any good for a knife that will be used. This didnt make much sense to me. As long as it is good quality material and is heat treated properly wouldnt damascus make a great knife for a user?
 
I was curious about it really. The actual maker was not at the table at the time, but his work was very nice and finish work was very impressive. I asked her what steels they did use and she said most were ATS34. Too bad i didnt get a chance to talk to the maker because they only live a couple hours away from me, and it would have been nice to connect with someone relatively close who does nice work like that and may be able to offer some tips.
 
I have made a couple of knives from damascus that I bought from AD and Dan Seaver and they sit on the belt of the people they were made for. They use them almost everyday and I have no concerns that they will hold up to good use. Yes, I daresay she probably didn't sell the knife.
 
Sounds like a "sour grapes" type of statement from a possibly under-informed lady with definite vested interests. There is a grain of truth there- damascus won't really cut better than the best of its component steels would alone, but if HT'ed right it will cut as well as comparable monosteels. Years ago this would have been true perhaps of the older style laminate made of alternating high and low carbon materials- ironic that in those days it was often hyped as being the "ultimate cutter."

Also, there are MANY variables- i.e., an O1-L6 blade by Kevin Cashen will very likely outcut a 1084 blade by Joe Fleamarket.
 
i used a 5" damascus skinner as a house utility knife for years. its main merit: ease of sharpening. a few strokes on a smooth soft stone and it's shaving sharp. main demerit: damascus blades are generally soft. better for fine cutting than hard use.

more criticisms: they rust easily when left untended for a long time and repeated honing removes the damascus pattern near the edge.
 
Some people just are not suited for high carbon steel knives. Stainless suits them better.
 
I think that the real question is, "Does it cut better because it has that pretty pattern?"
Answer: No.
It's no different from any other type of knife- Damascus comes in everything from cheapo (though often pretty) imports to superbly crafted masterpieces.
Rust isn't an issue if you get Stainless damascus.
The fact that it's damascus doesn't make it better or worse in any absolute terms than solid steel, it's all in how it's made and whether the design suits the job.
My pocketknife is a damascus one that I made while learning how to do folders- it works great, I open boxes with it every day, and do leatherwork with it, too.
Andy G.
 
If made properly a damascus blade will cut as well as the parent material they are made from. Most soft blades are not heat treated properly or not made with all high carbon steel. As mentioned the O1 L6 combination is a cutter but difficult to master the forge welding. 1084/15n20 works great also. I have several knives out there right now that have dressed multiple animals and have not needed a resharpen. Rusting in damascus is from those who do not maintain their tools. Clean them when done and once home a light coat of oil will help prevent rust. If your damascus pattern is washing out along the edge you might be stropping too much or not maintaining the angle when sharpening. If any of my knives out there needed a cleaning and possible re-etch I would not have a problem taking care of it.

Damascus knives are tools and will wear out with use just like any other knife. Like I said in the beginning if made properly, a Damascus knife is no worse or no better than a mono steel knife made form the same/similar material.
 
A Damascus edge will not cut as smooth or as well as a mono steel edge, so long as the mono steel is the same in every way as the domanant steel in the Damascus. The Damascus edge is of two different steels, one being superior to the other in wear and hardness, and the lesser of the two will wear sooner giving an uneven sharpness in the edge. The edge becomes much as a serrated edge.
 
A Damascus edge will not cut as smooth or as well as a mono steel edge, so long as the mono steel is the same in every way as the domanant steel in the Damascus. The Damascus edge is of two different steels, one being superior to the other in wear and hardness, and the lesser of the two will wear sooner giving an uneven sharpness in the edge. The edge becomes much as a serrated edge.
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True for a lot of steel combinations. But, what is the dominant steel in O1-L6 dammy, or in 1084-15n20? I guess the one with higher carbon content, but they are pretty close to each other in these instances. Not coincidentally so, either- these are combos chosen because the steels in question respond favorably to identical HT specs, the main difference being that one is higher in chromium for contrast.

I'd think differing rates of wear resistance would be pretty negligible in these two combinations, especially with a little carbon migration thrown in. If anything, the decarb at the weld zones may cause some uneven wear...

Not trying to be a smart ass, just thinking out loud. (I've been occasionally told that's not a good idea.)
 
Historically, Damascus steel is named after a city in Syria, where the style of metal is believed to have originated. This is the metal the Turks used in their swords during the Crusades, to put some context into the era. It was reputedly forged of a special technique to give it legendary edge retention, some stories going so far as to describe the wielder hacking through stone with no detrimental effects to the blade. Some modern makers evidently rediscovered the technique for making true damascus, but even so, the secret has been lost to time.

Modern damascus is either pattern-welded or crucible-forged, neither of which giving the blades significantly more or less power. What you're probably talking about is the micro-serrations given to some varieties of steel to increase cutting potential.
 
Salem Straub said:
True for a lot of steel combinations. But, what is the dominant steel in O1-L6 dammy, or in 1084-15n20? I guess the one with higher carbon content, but they are pretty close to each other in these instances. Not coincidentally so, either- these are combos chosen because the steels in question respond favorably to identical HT specs, the main difference being that one is higher in chromium for contrast.

I'd think differing rates of wear resistance would be pretty negligible in these two combinations, especially with a little carbon migration thrown in. If anything, the decarb at the weld zones may cause some uneven wear...

Not trying to be a smart ass, just thinking out loud. (I've been occasionally told that's not a good idea.)
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Negligible yes. Definately negliglible, but there will be a difference in the way the two wear, minute as may be, but mono is still the king in the end result, if only by a tiny tad.
Pug-butter, as far as true Damascus, as you yourself stated it has been reproduced, and the reproduction is even better than the ancient, because it was traces of vanadium that made the old stuff so good. In the original making of the old Damascus, the makers themselves did not know this. It was accidental. Today, it can be made with controlled amounts of vanadium, and there is no secret to it.
 
I've been pocket carrying a damascus blade for over 20 yrs in my EDC. It's a 1989 Case 51059 LD (the Parker yrs). Granted, I don't use my pocket cutlery for anything out of the ordinary but it is used almost daily. I use a set of 'crock sticks' to keep the edge (maybe once/twice a week) & I'd bet I have less than 5% blade wear in its 23 yr life. I have no idea what steels Case/Parker used in making their damascus but mine has held up just fine.
 
Pug-butter said:
Historically, Damascus steel is named after a city in Syria, where the style of metal is believed to have originated. This is the metal the Turks used in their swords during the Crusades, to put some context into the era. It was reputedly forged of a special technique to give it legendary edge retention, some stories going so far as to describe the wielder hacking through stone with no detrimental effects to the blade. Some modern makers evidently rediscovered the technique for making true damascus, but even so, the secret has been lost to time.

Modern damascus is either pattern-welded or crucible-forged, neither of which giving the blades significantly more or less power. What you're probably talking about is the micro-serrations given to some varieties of steel to increase cutting potential.
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i posted that question in another forum and most replies agree with me: knife writers say damascus steel was invented in damascus, syria with little convincing reference.

more telling is historical accounts that describe the steel, "steels of different harness were hammered together to form a watery pattern on the blade..." others described it has having a "damascend pattern," since it reminded people of damask;
a rather expensive cloth with a watery pattern on the weave.

most conjecture damascus to have been invented in persia or india (from where wootz steel originated.) those two were weapons centers of note, while damascus was basically a trading center. my own take is that forging different metals together was universally known and any weapons center in europe (sheffield, toledo, solingen, milan, etc.) could have devised damascus.
 
This may be thread drift at this point, but "true damascus" or wootz was/is a crucible steel. As in, a smelted ingot. Cultures in many places did develop patterned steels by welding laminates, but this only became called damascus as an ingrained misnomer. "Pattern welded" is the truly correct nomenclature if we are parsing terms.
 
I use multiple Damascus knives without worry. As long as it is heat treated properly, and ground for the usage envisioned I have not noticed much difference between steels mono or pattern welded. I usually don't notice any difference in cutting ability due to different layers, but touch up my users fairly regularly and try and stay away from makers using straight Nickle in their Damascus. I don't require the best/newest/hardest steels as I find most knife steels are adequate for my uses and I try to know strengths and shortcomings of the steels chosen before buying. The Damascus adds character to a user knife IMO, especially when a patina develops over the starting oxide layer.
 
i do realize this is an older thread, but i have to say, WTF? you have a simple question that this guy asked, and damned if almost every single reply doesnt say nearly the exact same thing. why do people feel they need to consistently repeat an answer when its already posted, just reword it a little?


i see this on this forums all the time, and is the main reason i very rarely even come here...
 
daknifeguy said:
i do realize this is an older thread, but i have to say, WTF? you have a simple question that this guy asked, and damned if almost every single reply doesnt say nearly the exact same thing. why do people feel they need to consistently repeat an answer when its already posted, just reword it a little?


i see this on this forums all the time, and is the main reason i very rarely even come here...
Click to expand...

You've got to be kidding, right? You resurrect a thread that's years old to complain about it...?

THAT deserves a WTF.

...carry on.
 
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