Damascus questions.

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Jun 29, 2002
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I've been seeing alot of Damascus knives since I started browsing other knife sites lately...and I have a few questions.

What exactly IS damascus? Does it hold and edge or is it really strong? Or is it mainly for looks?

I once heard someone say that damascus had been around for a long time...but when they first made it nobody wrote the formula or steps in forging it, so it was lost to time, and the "old" damascus was nearly unbreakable , never losing an edge, etc. Probably an old wifes tale, but could it be true? Thanks. :D

-Hunter
 
As far as I know, Damascus steel is two different types of steel that are folded over eachother many many times. The lines whch are prevalent are the "folds".

Usually the two steels each have their own particular postive qualities, one might be very hard ), the other flexible; so, when you combine the two, you get a knife (or originally, a sword) that is hard AND flexible.

The name Damascus is true to the region it originated, among the Syrians, etc. It was also was developed by the Japanese, I am inclined to think they did so independantly, but you never know with the whole silk road trading action going on...
I have heard too that the technique (at least the western technique) has been lost, and the current methods are either of Japanese origin, or the best efforts to replicate (reverse engineer) the ancient pieces.

I don't know much about contemporary folding methods or technology (some guys may do it by hand).

In today's world, they primarily serve an aesthetic purpose. In fact few guys would use them as carry knives, not because they are not capable of the task, but because they are so expensive, and so pretty, etc.

There are different patters of the folds, giving each knife its particular beauty. There is Ladder pattern, Vines and Roses, Raindrop. I am sure there are a bunch more. I have heard (but never seen) that it is even possible (or at least conceivable) to make the folds in the shape of a name or initials, or simple icon.

The biggest name I hear in relation to damascus is Devon Thomas. I don't know if he makes knives, or just the steel.

I hope this helps.
 
I just got a parang lading in damascus and have a large klewang coming. You can see them theValiant Company
Here's a pic of the parang:
ParangLadingDam.JPG

It's not the really fine damascus with lots of layers - but it sure looks awesome in real life. Works well too!
 
Damascus gives the blade such a beautiful pattern. The more folds it has, the more pattern lines it is capable of having. Also, more folds give it more strength and flexiblity. I would get one but the folding of the blade just jacks up the price so much.
 
Damascus... 2 kinds there are:

One is "true" Damascus, sometimes known as Wootz (apparently "wootz" is a name made up by Bitish, just like "China" and "Japan"...). Wootz was originated by Indian. In fact, it was Syria's capital to follow the name, as it was once an important centre for wootz trading. With the right steel and the right skill, it would "Naturally" develope carbide banding, results in a beautiful pattern visible on the surface of a blade.
(There is a good article on this topic. Please check:http://umc.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html )

However, since the art of wootz exists no more, all we have left is "forge" damascus these days, what Malazo mentioned.

One thing about the art of forge damascus in the west, is that it was supposingly resurrected by Bill Moran, a master American smith, just a few decades ago.

The Japanese art of forge damascus has once lost too, after what they call the "Kotou" period. Not until the "Shinshintou" period, scholars suggested smiths should mix "Tamahagane" (samurai sword's major material) with old nails (!) Then the Japanese art of forge damascus resurrected.
(For more information on "samurai sword damascus", please refer to this "interesting" site:http://www.hi-net.zaq.ne.jp/osaru/e_index.htm
[this one is kind of "difficult" to read... Nevertheless, very informative.])

Today, damascus steel is pretty much considered as an artistic item rather and anything of real functional use (we're just not willing to scratch one!). Of course, a smith manages to forge things in beautiful damacus should as least be able to produce a knife with good mechanical qualities. However, one may easily found knives with jolly good properties without using damascus, no need to mention less buck is involved...

(ps. one small point on the "folding" of damascus. As a smith folds and welds a sheet steel back to itself repeatedly, the carbon content within becomes more evenly distributed. A more homogenous piece of material is less likely to give a "weak-point" for which to "break", and this gives rise to "extra strength" of the material.
However, there is a limit in this folding. As we all know, longer a piece of steel stays in a furnace, more carbon content will be lost. It is the carbon that gives the hardness of the steel, that what makes a knife "cuts". Should a steel be folded too many times, it would run out of carbon and becomes a crap knife...
Generally speaking, a Japanese smith will fold his steel for 10 to 15 times. Let's imagine a blade folded for 10 times will produce 2^10 = 1024 layers, that should be good enough, shouldn't it?)
 
Ah thanks guys! You've cleared up alot of stuff for me, I think im starting to get into damascus now!
 
Brisa has a Hugel damascus blade on sale right now for 50 Euro ($49) - go here and look under special offers:
Brisa
Putting on handles isn't that hard - and Dennis sells sheaths.
Wandi at Valiant has goloks starting as low as $80, and knives too.
Both will serve their cutting purposes extremely well - as you'll see if you look at Cliff Stamp's tests on the golok. He most certainly wasn't joking about the cutting potential of the golok - but that's a function of the design and temper.
The blades in actual use have a much different beauty than pictures or knives in a display case. Going the less expensive route will allow you to appreciate this, because you won't be afraid to use, sharpen and re-etch them.
Roselli ultra high carbon knives are essentially wootz without the pattern - but they're about $100 so you can actually use those too.
 
Originally posted by Fireshaker
Ah thanks guys! You've cleared up alot of stuff for me, I think im starting to get into damascus now!

This thread has cleared things up? You must be good -- these threads always leave me more confused :)

Here's another perspective:

"What exactly IS damascus?" If you think of damascus as a process to weld metals together to end up with a new substance, rather than a particular type of steel itself, you'll get the picture.

"Does it hold an edge or is it really strong?" It's almost always the case that aesthetics is one of the goals of damascus -- it looks cool. But that's not always the only goal. While some makers go just for looks, others also go for performance. It's a factor or what the constintuent metals are, and how good the smith is.

"Or is it mainly for looks?" Sometimes it's mainly for looks, other times, it's also for performance. You can probably always find a monolithic steel that performs as well or better than a particular damascus, but damascus looks better doing it!
 
but damascus looks better doing it!
I guess that's the best explanation so far. Of course the parang looks like any other sap smeared blade when it's working. It's afterward when I wash it in a handy river and rub in silt that it looks pretty again. It's kind of like watching a print develop and the picture appear. And of course it looks different than when you freshly etch it. Neat!
Which of those Valiant blades did you get, Joe?
 
I got the large size survival golok, just a couple weeks after I finished up clearing up everything in my yard, so now I have nothing to cut. My head may explode if I don't find something to chop up soon. The couch is looking particularly tempting.

Say, how well does your golok fit in its sheath? Mine is positively loose, it will just fall out. Is this a feature?

Joe
 
No - it's darned dangerous with a blade that sharp and heavy. It's an unfortunate part of wooden sheaths having to adapt to various climates. Jean-Marc has pics up of how to fit leather strips to the top of the sheath to make everything secure. First though, giving the sheath a dose of linseed or tung oil might be a good idea - and that alone might just solve your problem.
My sheaths have mostly stabilized now, and some just need a bit of leather work.
You have to find some stuff to cut - the blades are fun to use and incredibly effective. It's sure more fun cutting light stuff off trails with a parang than heavy stuff with the Husky (no I don't use an axe all the time!).
 
Heh, thanks guys. Im no expert on damascus, but I do have a better understanding of what goes into it, and exactly what it is, and what gives it those beautiful waves and lines. :)
 
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