Damascus questions

Dcon67

Dcon67

Joined
Jun 17, 2002
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143
I am thinking of getting a damsascus blade knife, and have some questions.

What are the differences between the different ones, I don't mean the patterns...

Darryl Meier
Devon Thomas
s.s. damascus
damasteel

Are some types more expensive than others and why?
Which one holds an edge better?
Easiest to sharpen and maintain?

Which one do you prefer and why?

And any information in general on the subject that may be interesting or useful. I have done a little research, and have some opinions already myself, but prefer to leave this very open ended for discussion for now.

Thanks
 
Hello Dcon67,
Some of the differences besides patterns are the steel mixtures that each maker uses. Each maker has his own recepies for edge holding ability and toughness. Some only make high contrast damascus which shows better pattern but can rust. Stainless damascus is like stainless with the added advantage of rust resistance but still keeping the pattern. Damasteel is a different form of stainless damascus. I think it is formed with powered metal. Darryl Meier makes some grat damascus, Devin thomas stuff is good too,as well as mike norris., but Jerry Rados makes the best stuff out there. Pattern is consistant, no flaws, and the best turkish twist you will ever see. But it is also the most expensive, last time I checked it was $50/inch!

If your going to have a knife made for yourself you have to say what am I going to use this knife for? Will it be my EDC or an occasional carry when I go out? From here you can select a damascus pattern and then a steel maker.
 
I was thinking of an occasional carry fixed blade, but I don't want to be afraid to use it. So I would be thinking in terms of wanting it to stay in excellent condition, and not get scratched up or dulled easily. As far as my taste goes, I think I like less contrast, I have seen a lot of D. Thomos, I think its too much contrast almost black/silver, with most of the blade black....I like the meier designs better, they have less contrast (silver/gray) and somehow looks more elegant, but this is just a personal preference.

I have not seen Jerry Rados's damascus, got any pics??

But first and foremost I want it to be able to be used, asthetics come second. Also, I don't mind keeping the blade oiled, so it doesn't rust, so thats not a huge consideration, as far as the stainless goes.

I have heard of people have problems sharpening damascus, due to the different metal hardnesses, the softer metal wears quicker when sharpening and its tough to produce a straight sharp edge, and I don't want that problem.

I want to learn all I can about this stuff before I get one...If anyone knows of any websites or faq's on it let me know. I have been to meiersteel.com but it gives very little info.
 
This one shows some of Jerry Rados's three dimensional Turkish damascus.

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I have one knife by Muller Forge in 1095/L6 ~100 folds pattern. I use on a regular basis. Muller Forge makes their own damascus and forges the blade to shape. It holds a good edge. It's easy to sharpen. It's not fragile, doesn't chip or roll easily. It's pretty. It will rust if you don't wipe it off. It can get a spotty finish even with wiping. I've both waxed and oiled the blade. Both methods seem about equal to me. I always keep it waxed and oiled and usually refresh it after 2-3 days of use. A spotty finish is OK by my account, and can easily be changed with light rubbing with an old rag and a wee bit of polish. This can restore the finish and keep the contrast in the grain lines.
 
Damascus steel was developed as a way to combine the flexability and shock resistance of a lower carbon steel with the hardness of a high carbon steel.

Simply put metalurgy in the old days lacked a lot untill the Japanise made some rather important breakthroughs!

Today a good steel like BG-42 or S30V would make a better user steel in most situations. I own a Spiragraph Double High Carbon Devin Thomas small Sebenza (woody) and it is great! I love the great contrast. The Sprirograph is the most expensive of his selection as it is the most difficult to make.

I am looking to upgrade my large Sebenza's BG-42 blade (6-50 large classic) with a Damasteel raindrop pattern blade in the next year or so. Not because it will make a better edge keeper (I doubt it will be as good) but rather because I want something special for an EDC that won't rust easily.

IMHO Damascus is more about art today rather than pure function. Though I am very happy with my Damascus performance up till now! Cuts great, holds a great edge and looks stunning. :cool:
 
I would like to dispell the myth often times stated here about damascus. It can perform as well or better than non-damascus steels. The last cutting competetion held by the A.B.S. was won by Ray Kirk using a damascus blade that he forged. The performance depends on the types of steel that were used, the heat-treat and the grind.
 
You need to match your damascus with the maker's intent for the steel. Some damascus is made to look pretty and not to be a good knife edge. I believe these are ones with higher nickel contents. In adddition, the care and skill taken in damscus production assures that you will get a reliable steel. Just like any other forged material.

My Muller Forge L6/1095 damsacus is equal in performance to any 440C, AUS8, VG-10, CPM440V, ATS-34 stainless I've seen in a production blade. It surpasses the performance in edgeholding of 1095 alone. It's equal or better as a knife steel to differentially tempered A2 (I think that's what it is). But remember also, the forged blade, temper, heat treat and hand ground edge and tip of any hand-made knife by a "custom" maker will outsurpass a production product irregardless of steel.

Despite history, I think Damascus is made today because it looks great. But I'd be the first to admit, that IMHO, there is a lot of poor Damascus out there when it comes to "looks." Don't buy damascus w/o first seeing it.
 
The best damascus is without doubt right up there with any other steel as far as being a user is concerned. As has been stated, it can be made to be more art than function, but it can also be a very high performance steel.
 
Well yes, if you combine 1095/1084 and L6 15N20 you do get a very good level of performance. That goes without saying. Also you get a hand forged and tempered blade with far more attention to detail than a mass made blade.

True, true and true.

However if the same maker was to take L6 steel or any high end carbon or stainless steel and temper and forge the steel to the same standard, this still as an edge holder would be better.

In shock resistance and flexability damascus would be better.

I LOVE Damascus, but I don't see it as the optimon steel for most users. Its all in the blend and a modern steel like CPM10V WILL hold an edge longer than just about anything else made, I know, I have a custom fixed blade treated by Paul Bos. It is both tough and takes a razor edge, yet holds it like NOTHING I have ever seen in my life.

I doubt many Damascus mixes could match this, without going exotic in the highest regard. That proves the point again, its all in the mix. It can be done, but what if you are cutting with the lesser steel, which you must do some of the time? Lower performance thats what.

Still love Damascus though!:) :D :p
 
It can be done, but what if you are cutting with the lesser steel, which you must do some of the time? Lower performance thats what.
Click to expand...

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. There are also several hundered A.B.S. members who might tend to disagree. :p
 
The General: I'm wondering what you meant by breakthroughs the Japanese made.

Also, at least in terms of Japanese blades (and I'm sure in other places as well), welding was to help purify the steel and make it a bit more homogenous. It wasn't to "combine hard and tough" steels really, because that isn't really the result. There are a good number of reasons for the development of pattern-welding, but I don't feel that the hard + tough ideology is very good. Of course, that's debated a lot...

Back to general info about pattern-welding though.

The greatest downside to pattern-welding is the potential for flaws. Cold shuts, slag inclusions, etc can sometimes be very damaging to the integrity of a blade, and other times they aren't really damaging at all. But, if flaws are out of the picture for the most part, the biggest question tends to be heat treat. Let's say you use procedure A to "optimally" heat treat 1084. You also have procedure B to "optimally" heat treat 15N20. With monosteel, you only need to heat treat one chemical composition (which is why Japanese swords are often rather high layer billets--so the chemical composition is more consistent). You know both steels, but when you combine them into a billet, you can't heat treat them individually! A lot of makers need to find a means to compromise, which is why many feel that monosteel blades are higher performance.

But I also feel that makers aren't given nearly enough credit, while the materials are too highly emphasized.
 
:p Well we can't all be as knoledgable as me!:p (or make so few spellings mistakers!)

Damascus looks great and works brilliantly, one other thing I would add is I have yet to stare for hours at the grain structure and patterns in my CPM10V knife. Strangly nor any other blade other than my Damascus knife, strange that...;) :D

Anyone else find the patterns hypnotic?:cool: I esp love the feel of the different layers when stroping the edge against my finger tips. Oh and the ripping/cutting power of the two differnt layers of steel is a thing to behold.

As I said, Damascus is COOL with a big C, but for Joe Average S30V would out cut most...*ahem:p * 'normal Damascus steels by a noticable margine.

After all who would argue 1095 steel could out perform S30V if both are well treated? Lets face it, at some point the 'lesser' steel will be at the edge face. As Anne Reeve put it, if the 1095? And Nickel Damascus blade was cutting on the Nickle rather than the 1095 the user would notice lower performance (paraphrasing from memory)

Not even Cliff Stamp would argue this in terms of edge holding!

I would like to know what two steels are used in Damasteel out of interest as I will at some point get a Damasteel blade for my Sebi.:)
 
Originally posted by Robert Marotz
The General: I'm wondering what you meant by breakthroughs the Japanese made.

.
Click to expand...

My argument would be the combination of the convex grind, with a single edged differental tempering folded steel blade that was both tough and flexable at the same time.

Anyone who argues that the Katana and Wakizashi were not the finest pinnicle of sword design and manufacture probably has a point of view I have yet to hear. The only other blades that seemed to posses merrit on the same scale were the origional Viking pattern welded swords, Scimitars and Falcions from the Damascus region and the noted Salamanca Spanish swords.

The Japanise I would argue combined all the best parts of the technology not 'first' as many others developed the technoligy many years before the Japanise, but they brought the whole 'package' together in a single eligant swordsmans weapon.

Even if the bow as a weapon was far more significant on the battlefield of Japan.:p
 
Then why isn't 10v and 30v winning any cutting competitions -:rolleyes:
 
Wow, lots of interesting info!!

One of the knives I was interested in has AEBH & 304 Damascus. I assume that AEBH is some designation for the nickel content and 304 is the steel, is this correct?
 
I find it funny that a lot of areas in the sword community will enter a bloodlusted frenzy at the mere mention that the katana was one of the best (if not the best) swords in any respect at all.

Anyways, a lot of the "technology" the Japanese used was actually taken from China (welding, heat treat, early archaic shapes). However, I will fully agree that the Japanese did refine it to their own needs in the development of the tachi. While there are some fantastic Chinese swords that equal many high end Japanese swords on those technological and aesthetic levels, it would probably not be far-fetched to say that Japan has many more extant high-end examples.

As far as elsewhere in the world, there's a lot of confusion and inconsistency in information, so I don't really know much about European swords. I'm sure there were some of pretty good quality, but I haven't seen any. I would hazard a guess that modern reproductions by guys like Arms and Armor are, on the average, higher quality than the originals they are reproducing.

Anyways, I think I'm delineating too far from the topic in question, sorry!
 
Originally posted by Bastid
Then why isn't 10v and 30v winning any cutting competitions -:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Probably because it would not sell for such a high price premium as a lovely Damascus blade. Partical Metalurgy blades are not ugly... but not much to look at either. As I said, the Art is as important as the function. It is not in a knife makers interest to 'just' use a normal Monosteel even if the performance edge holding was even slightly better. It would not have the same appeal and probably sell for far less.

The most expensive custom knives are almost always Damask in nature. It takes a lot of skill and ability to make such a work of art... but is this a knife? Work of art? Or as I think both! I greatly admire the makers of such blades, I just understand my reasons for wanting one and am yet to be convinced a Monosteel of the highest quality would be out performed by a damask steel of the same and a lesser steel if both were heat treated to the optimon. I think the Damask style trades a little edge holding for appearance and lateral flexability. Not a bad thing by any means, but it must sacrifice something in edge holding to be able to do this. This is not a mythical process or 'magic' simply the laws of science and common sence. Sorry to sound Cliff Stampian, but modern Monosteels are very very good as pure edge holders.

On a more contentious issue would anyone expect an INFI steel blade to be bettered for edge holding than a custom Damascus? If yes (and I am staying neutral on this issue)then I would agree I was wrong and would be highly interested in such a Damascus blade.

INFI is a Monosteel and has a highly respected reputation for strength and edge holding. I have yet to see ANY steel that on paper can beat it for all round performance.

For the record I don't own an INFI blade. But am considering a Satin JAck at some point.

I am I must say enjoying this debate and thank everyone for keeping this civil and pleasant. Great that we can discus this without getting offended at each other.
 
It has been fun and I agree that there is a lot of damascus out there that was made with the notion of art in mind first; but damascus does not necessarily mean that performance is sacrificed. I guess I have become tired of those statements that would indicate otherwise. I am not sure what type of Damscus is normal. By it's nature it is unique although there are quite a few folks out there that are about as consistant as it can get.

Here is a nice piece of Art that also happened to win the cutting competition at the Spirit of Steel Show this fall. I do not feel selling price has anything to do with a cutting competition :confused:. It was made by Ray Kirk and we will be hearing more about this knife in the near future.

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added later.
Ray's knife is a mix of 15n20 and 52100 that he forged.
 
so, would i be right in saying that IF the maker used the best steels and proper method of making the damascus, it'll be among the best materials for making a knife?
i always thought that damascus was very hard but prone to rust
but that appears to be a property of the steels, not the construction

of course, one has to get over the fear of potentially scarring a damascus knife when putting it to hard use ;)
 
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