Damascus twist for Bruce and Bruce

R Dockrell

R Dockrell

Joined
Mar 26, 2000
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658
Finally got somthing to the point of showing it off from the new press.
52100/5160 twist. Lightly etched just to show the pattern. Only to 400 grit but looking good if I do say so myelf.:D
 

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That looks totally awesome !!!!!!!!!!
Mine never turns out that nice....
But I am not giving up yet on it.
Please make sure you post pictures of the knife after you get it completed.
Bruce
 
Woah Doc, that is very nice!!! I like a pattern that flows nicely but isn't too busy.
 
Thanks for all the comments guys.
This was actually my second attempt at sole autorship damascus. I have made it a couple of times with other makers using there equipment, everything had been random patterned.
My first try failed because I didn't preheat the press dies and had a cold shunt, I beleive right off the bat. It showed up while grinding.
I was in such a hurrry to have a look at this because I new the welds would be good so I stoped at 40 layers/ from a ten layer start.
I didn't want to random it so I figured a good way to test the welds was to heat it up and give it a few twists. Well more than just a few, then heat it up and forge it flat.
B.E. I will post some pictures when its finished you have got me interested in framed handles. I think I'll do it so a cowboy would like it, hint, hint.:)
 
That is very nice damascus, Robert!

This may be really obvious, but want to know for sure -- using 2 quality steels like 52100 and 5160, would that make damascus that is actually a good user steel? I haven't really heard anyone say, but would also think that the higher contrast 1084 and L6 would actually be a pretty good steel also.

Guess what I'm saying, does damascus kind of follow the weakest link theory? If one of the components isn't really a good steel, like nickel silver or whatever, then the damascus will be mostly for looking at?

Also, will what sounds like not very much forging make for a coarser grain structure?
 
Bugs,In my opinion if you make the Damascus out of all Higher carbon steels you will get a better quality Damascus.As you will lose carbon during the welding process the higher your carbon count to begin with the better off you are.
That is why some of the old Damascus that was done with alternating layers of mild steel was not really good at cutting.Yes you will get carbon migration between the steels but with to much no or low carbon steel in the mix then you cut the carbon content down drastically.
As to the grain difference between the high fold count and low layer.If you normalize and anneal the Damascus properly then that won't be a issue.But with less heats at welding temperature you will have less carbon loss.Now if youy have very much mild steel in the mix then you will be better off with the higher folds so you are homoginizing the bar more and leaving less mild steel in the cutting edge,Not really less but smaller pieces of it.
Hope this Helps clear this up for you,
Bruce

This is just my opinion and I am sure that there will be others with a opinion of there own....
 
Bugs
As far as I'm concerned Bruce hit the nail on the head. I want to make performance using knives,and the more carbon I start with in two compatable steels the more carbon I will have avaliable after welding and forging for hardening. Trusting that proper welding and forging proccedures are followed.
For 3 years now I have been working and experimenting with 52100 and 5160. This experiance will be put into my 52100/5160 damascus to yield a performance blade that looks good.
In the future I plan to use 52100 and L6 for a higher contrast.
As for carbon migration it has happened after two welding cycles. The grain structure as Bruce stated will be taken care of by proper normalizing and annealing. As for the amount of forging, well the starting billet was 1 X 2.5 X 2.5 inches consisting of 10 .25 inch layers and the finished bar was about 1.25 X .20 X 9 inches with 40 layers. Its been squashed, twisted and squashed again from just about every side. I think it got forged enough.
 
Robert, very nice twist you've got there. My compliments on just getting 5160/52100 to stick together! My question for you would be What are you going to use for a tempering temperature? By themselves, 5160 and 52100 temper about 100 degrees different. I suppose you'll just start on the low heat end and keep raising the tempering temp until the edge don't chip any more?

Bugs, I work with 1084/L6 alot and it is just as good as 1084 by itself. I have one letter on file from a customer that used one of my damasacus Bowies to cut a steel-belted radial truck tire off of his Bronco after the tire got wrapped around the axle. Sure the knife was dull as hell when he was done, but what knife wouldn't be? Damascus has gotten such a bad rap for edge holding...unduely. When properly treated, it should perform just as good as tool steel with the same carbon content.

Just my opinion,
Bob
patternweld2@cs.com
 
Robert, That is a great looking peice of steel! Great twist and colors. Ive never tryed to weld 52100 because I heard the welding temp envelope is narrow. Congrats.

I just got home from a gun show and spent 4 hours with John Davis at his shop. He taught me some neat tricks I cant wait to try out.
 
I have been putting 1 inch Ball Bearings into my scrap Damascus billets for a while now.And Chuck Helton and I have been putting 52100 bars in our mix for awhile now also.It welds in just fine.I like to add about three or four different types of steel to my billets to get allot of different contrast.
One trick that I have learned is that if you will put a piece of mild steel on the bottom and top of the original billet stack,when you heat up to welding they will heat up the fastes and since they have no carbon to loose you will be keeping your carbon in the billet when welding as the scale you get is from the mild steel and after you stretch that first billet out and get ready to fold it you can either grind the mild steel off or just make enough folds that it is thin enough and the carbon has migrated into it that it won't make a differnece in how the Damascus will perform.Of course I like to make big billets that will stretch out to 30 -40 inch bars that are 1/8 inch thick before I cut and stack it again after that first heat.
Hope this makes sense to you guys.
Bruce
 
Bob
I have never had a problem with welding 52100 before with other makers. This was my second attempt at it myself and I actally have two more billets to the 160 and 320 layer level.
This 80 layer blade is going to get the HT treatment untill its right.
I am leaning towards a modification of Al Pendray's procedure for 52100. Thus eliminating the "tempering" cycle.
I have experimented with this method with 52100 and 5160 individually now I have to combine my procedures to a homoginous blend of the two, and yes temperatures will have to be altered and experimented with but I have this good feeling.

Bruce B
Thanks, you know were I'm headed with this and yes I'll keep you informed.;)
 
Thanks Bruce, Robert and Bob for your responses. I really appreciate them. Guess my initial question was prompted by the fact that much of the damascus I see in magazines, and on here too, I guess, is several hundred layers -- well at least 200+. That's why I wondered about only 40 layers. I have really appreciated some of Bruce's damascus that has large patterns, but don't think I asked then about the # of layers.

It certainly makes sense that the higher carbon the original steels the more carbon will be left after carburization. Most of what little I know about that comes from Ed Fowler's book. He says that he always forges larger than his finished product, so he can grind off the surface level that has experienced most of the carburization. In talking about grain structure, particularly about some steel he made with Rick Dunkerly, and -- I think -- in his video, he talks about forging enough to achieve the fine grain structure he's after. I know that the normalizing/annealing and cryogenics all seem to contribute to that end. Well, maybe not cryogenics, but I know that helps in the change from austenite to martinsetic qualities of the steel.

Or, maybe I misunderstood some of the things Ed was saying. I'm sure that hand-hammered steel during forging gets "forged" much more than when a power hammer is used. Do smiths use the hydraulic presses in making damascus? Does that do enough "forging"?
 
Would not a 5160 sandwich with 52100 as core be the ideal combination? The egdeholding of 52100 and the tougness of 5160 (or perhaps 5150) would make a pretty impressive blade.

Diff temper to boot :)
 
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