Damasteel vs true damascus ??

darkestthicket

darkestthicket

Joined
Nov 30, 2002
Messages
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i was watching something on the discovery channel about either swords or blades that were pretty notorious back in history... I know that todays damascus isnt true damascus (please correct if im wrong) so the question is,

is true damascus better/more desirable/better edge retention and flexibility than todays product?

anyone that can enlighten me on this subject (paging cliff... oh cliff!) please let me know?

also any comments on why damascus can no longer be made would be greatly appreciated as would some book references if anyone has some!

thanks!
 
The ancient damascus was something we call Wootz. What you find today is called pattern welded steel, aka damascus. There are makers who make Wootz, which is scratch building steel. There may have been some comparrison testing between Wootz and today's pattern welded steel, but I've not see it. The pattern in Wootz was basically from the impurities in it. To revreate the original requires a lot of trace elements including vanadium, and, IIRC titanium.

There are some good websites about Wootz if you do a search for it.

The reason damascus was so sought after was because it cut better. With today's metallurgy, that isn't nearly as much the case anymore. The layers on pattern welded steel abrade at different rates, so, in theory, it holds a cutting edge longer. Now people really like it because of its appearance more than cutting ability.

Gene
 
A steels with a high carbon content, usually with a small amount of alloy, can form patterns due to the carbide structure, this is wootz damascus. Verhoeven has articles on exactly why the pattern forms. Some people still make this today. There is also steel made from forging two steels together, one usually has a high nickel content as that makes a high contrast point, usually called pattern damascus. As for the mechanical properties, it is mainly a cosmetic effect. This isn't to say the steel is a poor cutlery choice, but that what makes the pattern is more for cosmetics than performance. There has been much discussion of this on SwordForums in the Metallurgy forum.

-Cliff
 
thanks, both of you, so it is essentially false that true Damascus isnt made today? shows what learning from tv will do for you. lol
 
I spoke with a blacksmith in new mexico who told me that the old style damascus was basicly a way of getting soft steel to be hard by mixing and folding the junk in it. Dont know if its true, but he said that it was pretty overrated compared to modern steels.
MAde me think of the viking swords that look like damascus blades, made with welded and folded iron rods for the body but with steel welded on for the cutting edge.
 
Yes true damascus is still made today, and then there are really cheap knives that advertise damascened which is really just an etching on top of 440 stainless that makes it look liked layered steel...You can find patterns like this for $5 at flea markets and in certain magazines...people like the look of layered steel so that was a cheap way for certain companies to make a knife that looks like damascus but still only costs $5...I like damascus for its looks...thats just me...
 
There are a lot of Russian knife makers working in Wootz.

Also, something that has a related "look" is meteoritic steel. A great person to talk to about both is Tai Goo.
 
Thanks Keith, excellent links.

Is meteoric steal truly as the name implies? ive seen that listed before but thought it was hot air. Does Wootz damascus go for more than Damasteel? thank you all for your patience! I am thinking of trying to make my own knife and was considering damascus for it. (silly idea for my first i know. lol)
 
Damasteel is a European product made by forge welding together two different stainless steels. Most damascus is made from carbon steels. Damasteel performs just fine. I've owned two damasteel bladed knives and liked them both. You won't find it used much outside the custom knife world. Boker has done a few high end folders with Damasteel.
 
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