Damp vermiculite

Rick Baum

Rick Baum

Joined
Mar 14, 2000
Messages
509
I bought some vermiculite so that I can anneal my first forged blade. I opened the bag and it's damp. I'm guessing that this would have a less than desirable effect on my blade when I put it into the bucket to anneal it. It's supposed to be dry right?

I guess I can just put some of the vermiculite in a shallow pan and put in the oven for a while. The problem is it's going to take too long (I'm anxious to finsh the first one) and I'm pretty sure it won't smell like chocolate chip cookies baking.

I'm supposed to be making knives not baking insulation:mad:

Rick
 
Yes it is supposed to be fully dry and I wouldn't use it until it was. I think it wouldn't have the insulating capacity you need while it is wet. It shouldn't take it long to dry though if it's in a paper bag and in a dry location. Be careful and don't stir the dust up too much, it has stuff in it you'd rather not breath.

You'll need enough dry vermiculite to fill a large enough container so that the knife is completely covered. If the tang is exposed at all it will of course bleed heat into the atmosphere and you won't get a full anneal. I've gotten good results by preheating the vermiculite with scrap steel (old lawn mower blades heated in my forge), before inserting the knife.
 
You guys might want to find something else. They have proved here lately that Vermiculite is natures own little asbestos. And they proved it will get you. I got rid of all of mine.
jf
 
Thanks Jerry, I had heard that (long after I had bought and used it for that purpose)and have been wary of using my bucket of vermiculite or even taking the lid off of it. Makes you wonder about all of those gardeners out there and the backyard garden beds (including mine) full of the stuff. I bet fireplace or forge ashes would work as well.

I've been wondering if annealing is really necessary. I've seen blades cleaned up with files that were only normalized.
 
Thanks Silent and Jerry, I don' have any ashes laying around and it seems like everyone that I know with a fireplace has a gas insert nowdays. Any other suggestions for an insulator?

Rick
 
I am now using hydrated lime. May also be called agriculture lime.
This works really well.
j
 
I know we all have different ways of getting to where we want to go, but this is the way I do it now. I used to use verticulite and wood ashes too for annealing but the forge works better I think. All I do is, after forging to shape and then running my 3 normalizing cycles, I shut the forge off and place the blade in standing on its spine, cover the front and back forge openings with a piece of kaowool and walk away. Next day the blade is nice and soft. I was concerned about the blade becoming to hot in the forge right after it was shut off, so I checked a couple useing a magnet to see if they were exceeding non-magnetic, and they weren't. But I throttle my forge way back when normalizing and this gives it a chance to cool down from forging and welding heats.

Just my 2 cents

Bill
 
Myself and at least 1 other also use the forge to anneal. However when I am running the forge for more than one billet. I also use a container of lime.

Just watch out with the lime the kind i use is what the brick layers add into the cement. When you put the blade into it, it quite often shoot a cloud of lime up along the blade. I'm not keen to breath it in. I usually hold my breath put the blade in and go outside while any dust settles.

I have also seen ash work on small blades.
 
Thanks for the help and suggestions guys... One question. Does anyone know what the difference between the hydrated lime and the masonary lime is? I know that the masonary type can be hazardous to your health.
 
I forge on charcoal, which solves that problem nicely. :) I just let the coals die down a bit, then stir the blade into the ashes. They're still pretty warm, but nothing like they were with the blower going. I cover the whole thing and it gradually cools as the coals die.
 
Lime is a caustic base. It will convert the subcutanious layer of fat into soap. This is why it feels slippery when touched. I also think, though I could be wrong, that warm sand can be used.

WS
 
Thanks for all of the info guys... It's starting to sound as if it doesn't matter which substance I use (vermiculite or lime) they are both hazardous to breath. Whatever it is that I use I will use a respirator.

Thanks,
Rick
 
Nice white poplar ashes get my vote. I like them because they don't seem to absorb humidity in the summertime, and they are nice and fluffy, thereby creating quite a nice insulator. Right now, my setup is basically one of convenience. I use the small galvanized steel ashcan I keep next to the woodstove in my shop. :p

I push the blade deep into the ashes and fish it out after a couple days. Usually, its still warm to the touch! Now that's a great s-l-o-w anneal! I dunno, I guess in my weird Old Yankee mind a long slow anneal is better.

Jeff
 
Higgy, That is slow! How slowly does the steel have to cool to fully anneal?

Last night I preheated the vermiculite with a 1 1/8" by 6" piece of steel while I heated my blade and then put it into the vermiculite to cool overnight. By noon today the blade was as cold as the files sitting on my bench. Of course, it is winter time here and my shop cools down to about 20 degrees when I'm not working in it. I think my vermiculite was still a little damp because there was condensation on the lid of the can that I'm using for the annealing process. Should I bring my "annealing can" into the house, or do you guys think it's ok in the shop?

Rick
 
Yeah ashes are about the slowest anneal in my honest opinion. I got hooked on using ashes to anneal in after an unfortunate mishap with my daughter...

A company I worked for always had a yearly barbecue where all the "suits" cooked steaks for everyone (probably to show the employees how wonderful the were). They used a couple of huge BBQ grills we mechanics welded up special for this event. Well, guess who always got stuck with the clean-up? Yep, your's truly.

I decided to just simplify things, and dump the (still smoldering) ashes into the ditch. By the way, we were having a dry spell and the ditch was dry. This was on a Thursday.

Well, I had some overtime offered to me on Saturday morning and I decided to take it. Only trouble was that my wife had toi go to Maine to care for a sick brother, and I was stuck with the kids. My daughter (13), and my son (10) decided to play outside at the basketball hoop, while I was doing some welding on a machinery part in the building.

Suddenly my daughter ran into the building screaming and in tears. I thought she had been stung by a wasp or something. Indeed, she was burned by still-active coals buried deep within the ashes THREE DAYS LATER!!! I ran a garden hose out to extinguish the coals in the ditch and tended to my girl's ankle. Apparently the ball had got loose from them and rolled into the ditch, and she was elected to fetch it. When she stepped on the huge pile of ashes, she was burned.

I learned my lesson that day about leaving hot ashes unattended. I also learned the insulating properties of ashes that day. Your question about how cool it should be is a simply one... if you can hold it without getting burned, it's annealed.

Peace and good luck with your annealing!

Jeff Higgins
 
Jeff, Sorry about your little girl's ankle:eek: . Using ashes makes perfect sense now that you told that story. I don't know how many times I have gone camping and used the previous nights coals buried in ashes to start a fire the next day. I'm going to start saving the ashes from BBQing. I see a lot of steaks and chicken in my imediate future:D

thanks again,
Rick
 
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