Danny in Japan.....translation please

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Since you seem to be versed in Anthropology and languages and material cultruralism, could you please translate this into something that person of average intellect and education can understand?

"Marxist Dialectical Materialism (concepts and ideas are the result of material condition) and Marxist Historical Materialism (influential members of society hold sway on material condition, while society's social institutions are founded upon material condition) differ from Cultural Materialism in a few key aspects. Cultural Materialism holds that Infrastructure has influence on Structure, while Structure exerts little influence upon Infrastructure. Marxist Materialism, on the other hand, maintains that Infrastructure and Structure are influential to each other. Another distinction between Marxist and Cultural Materialism is Class Theory. Marxist Materialism believes social change is beneficial to the ruling (Bourgeoisie) class only, while Cultural Materialists believe social change is beneficial to the working (Proletariat) class as well. :D :D :D And is Harris a communist? Just kidding.
 
This translates to "This is my dissertation but I don't have much to say". And you must have forgot the line deep in the report about giving a bottle of Scotch to anyone who actually reads that line and claims the prize...
 
this (my explanation) is very very silly, but good enough i think:

structure = your job
infrastructure = your religion

marxist materialism is classical marxism (exploitation of the workers and all that)
cultural materialism is an anthropological paradigm.
( how the parts of society fit together)

production - food
reproduction - babies and death
infrastructure - everything else

we look at resources and use marxist ideas to determine how a society is built based upon the exploitation of those resources.

there is only so much food.
so, you either have fewer babies or more wars.
you have to increase production (more food) or decrease reproduction. (fewer people eating the food)

its really pretty simple.
most of those terms are the result of graduate students trying to graduate.
theres nothing more certain to get your dissertation approved then to generate new terms...
 
With his theory of Cultural Materialism, Marvin Harris insisted that Anthropology was a science under the constraints of rigid scientific method leaving no room for more intuitive or humanistic approaches.

However, when dealing with human beings, sometimes the intuitive method is the only way to get at the underlying reality. Even though this reality may be subjective, it can be extremely valuable in giving a deeper understanding of the culture.

Psychology shares this same contradiction. It is considered a science and depends upon scientific method, but it ultimately deals with a subject, the human mind, which can not be scientifically objectified.
 
Well-put, Ben.
I stand under Marvin's flag.

I dont dispute the powers of intuition, but I believe that Anthropology should be approached as a hard science.
 
anybody here read Truth and Method by Gadamer?
 
Daniel Koster said:
anybody here read Truth and Method by Gadamer?

If that's the same Gadamer I'm thinking of, nobody reads that except philosophy majors with an interest in Hegel and Heidegger.
 
FallingKnife said:
That's actually pretty interesting. My take on it is that it says that academics live in such an insulated world where they aren't really required to communicate clearly, that they've developed a tradition of communicating little and doing it poorly.

Err, perhaps this could be changed to some academics, or better, a few academics?

Wouldn't generalize there. Many fields, including fields that many anthropologists draw upon, make a great point of communicating very clearly and precisely, to the extent that those not trained in the field don't understand the jargon. Examples include the "hard sciences", medicine, law, economics, etc. In many of these areas there are academics that work in subspecialities that are as insulated as anyone, theoretical astrophysicists, for example.

The long, apparently "meaningless" chemical name for vitamin B12 actually specifies the exact structure of vitamin B12. Terms like "dioxin" and "alcohol" refer to large families of related compounds, in much the same way that "frog" refers to a bunch of related animals. The seeminly obtuse "scientific" names are actually a way of communicating more effectively. It is confusing that scientists and mathematicians and others have co-opted mundane terms like, "group", "set", "field", "ring", "manifold", and the like. Yet these terms all have rigorously defined meanings in modern algebra, just as rigorous as logarithym. Some of them have just as rigorous yet, different meanings in other areas of study.


The "deconstructionist world-view" uncomplimentarily described in the piece I linked, originated as I understand it, in the field of literary criticism. Some seem to think that it can be (usefully?!) applied to nearly anything, apparently.

If you look at the recent thread called "Clean Anthropology Thread", you will find a bit more of my perspective on this.
I would say the basic tenants of this particular branch (perhaps, appendix -- in biological meaning would be better) of thought probably guarantees the condition that you describe. I'd say that the problem is with accepting bad postulates, though as I understand it, postulates aren't an acceptable construct to propents of this view, since practitioners would view all postulates as having equal validity.

I'd agree that it is hard to imagine such a thing existing outside of academia for long, but please don't extend this to all of academia. It is like saying that since the species of cockroaches commonly known as German cockroaches is only found in proximity to buildings made by humans, it follows that the all the animals to found in proximity to buildings are German cockroaches.

Adherants to a particular branch of literary criticism might find that a valid position, I doubt that many others do.
 
firkin said:
Err, perhaps this could be changed to some academics, or better, a few academics?.....................QUOTE]

Perhaps a compromise? How 'bout "most' academics
 
this whole thread sounds like the delusioned babble of lawyers, a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing....
 
"How 'bout "most' academics"

If you are referring to communication to those outside of their area of specialization the details of what transpires within their area of specialization, maybe.

But try asking people like statisticians, engineers, medicinal chemists, physiologists, semi-conductor scientists, statisticians, or even accountants nowdays, exactly what it is they do in detail; nearly all of these areas have people who work in both academia as well as the "real world". I think you'll often encounter the same problem. That is unless you are fortunate enough to encounter one of the people who has to report to someone who isn't familiar with the field to justify continued funding on exactly what they are doing in the area, as opposed to funding somewhere else.


Do you really want to sit down for a half-hour lecture on complex cellular biochemistry full of words you don't understand, the statistical details of the clinical trial, or just have the doctor (who probably doesn't know many of those things anyway) say what final results suggest, "studies show taking this drug for your condition has the least side-effects like impotence"?

Yet a team of people found that understanding of just that complex cellular biochemistry was required to point them in the direction of producing that drug with fewer side effects, and do efficiently and economically communicate with each other in a language that is to the uninitated an obtuse jargon of acronyms and gobblydegook.

Does the image below impart a lot of information?

166AZ1.GIF


Can I tell you what all of the information represented here is? No. Can I tell you what information is here that I recognize in a couple of paragraphs of plain language? No. It represents a condensation of a lot of concepts developed in a long series of steps. This particular representation of those concepts is of practical use to a particular speciality.

If I replace the english letters and numbers with some strange symbols, some people could probably be conviced that it is a representation of something entirely different, or even some kind of "plan" from aliens.

I can tell you,

"It is a two-dimensional representation of one of 230 possible ways that the gemometry of three dimensional space permits a crystal (a three dimensional, regularly-spaced lattice of repeating units) to exist. A lot of the funny symbols and numbers represent things like rotation axes or mirror planes that symmetry allows for the repition of the pattern. It is a representation of what is known as a space-group."

Sorry, that's the best that I can do in a couple of sentences. Don't like it? How about,

"It is a representation of one of the many ways things can stack up to make a crystal, and some geometric properties of that kind of crystal." Simpler, but less informative.

Academic mumbo-jumbo? Hardly. This kind of thing is the basis crystallography, which is a tool used by metalurgists, geologists, chemists, and biochemists. Many of the pictures of how atoms are stacked up in metals, or other solids, as well as the the 3D pictures of things like DNA come from this.

The pix came from School of Crystallography, Birkbeck College, University of London.


You ought to see what happens when a bunch of mathematicians generalize and expand the concepts that underlie this...

Here is an applied (as opposed to entirely generalized and abstracted) http://www.ornl.gov/sci/ortep/topology.html] example.

So, I would say:

"...academics live in such an insulated world where they aren't really required to communicate clearly, that they've developed a tradition of communicating little and doing it poorly."

The above quote doesn't apply to most "academics" or most trained in academia who pursue careers in the "real world" regarding communication to others within their field. Quite the opposite in fact. It is merely a different language, meant to handle foreign concepts, that otherwise would require a huge amount of "ordinary" language.

I suspect that if you were to pick up a peer reviewed engineering, pharmaceutical, or solid-state materials journal, the articles produced by those in academia vs those employed by industry,would be for the most part indistinguishable if the authors' location were blacked out.

Their are a few exceptions of course, and even some fields or areas of specialization could be singled out. I think that those few who choose to apply the ideas of "postmodern" literary criticism whole-scale is probably one such exception. I think these exceptions will only or mostly occur in those fields where academia is the only place that the field is pursued.
 
Wow! Thank you, Firkin. You went to a lot work to make your point – which you did admirably. Admiration from Bucktown...
 
firkin said:
.."It is a two-dimensional representation of one of 230 possible ways that the gemometry of three dimensional space permits a crystal (a three dimensional, regularly-spaced lattice of repeating units) to exist...

I thought it was a secret game plan for Chinese Checkers, so I played a game with myself and won.

Which just goes to prove that the relevance and value of any information ultimately depends on it's interpretation and practical application.
 
Well, Firkin , maybe I misunderstood the point of the discussion, and your pontification was all very impressive, but has little to do with my contention that MOST "academics" don't communicate. Anyone in a complicated and/or technical field (including myself) can come up with the kind of goobledy goop contained in your post. And I understand that to communicate fine points of their fields to others in the same field, they need a certain amount of jargon to get the job done, and that others unacquinted with the particular field are not expected to understand (nor should they be).

However, I wasn't talking about statisticians, engineers, medicinal chemists, physiologists, semi-conductor scientists, statisticians, or even accountants. What I was referring to, and I think this is what most people think of when they hear the word "academics" is the 1st definition below:

Main Entry: 1ac·a·dem·ic
Pronunciation: "a-k&-'de-mik
Function: noun
1 : a member of an institution of learning
2 : one who is academic in background, outlook, or methods

That is, people who never get out of school. And the point of discussion, I thought, was: Do these people, who are members of the staff of a large university/college, become disconnected to the "real" world outside a college/university environment. Because they're been in school all of their lives (and never had a real job), do they still understand and are they able to communicate with people in the real, work a day world? I say that most of them can't/don't. But they are more convinced than any other group that they are superb communicators, when in fact, they don't have a clue. (Let the flames fall where they may) :D
 
Ichor, what you say may be true for those who engage in a profession that is praciticed nowhere else but in a university. If that is you definition of "academic", you have something of a point.

Communicate about what? The price of groceries?

Why should that be any different than someone in the "work-a-day world" trying to communicate with one of the Kennedys? Or most "career" politicians for that matter? Or Paris Hilton?


Yet there are many others who likewise spend their entire working lives within a university, engaging in fields of study that are practiced elsewhere, and they regularly interact with those working in the "real world".

Would you say George Boole was an academic?

EDIT

to find working link fro Boole

PS
Consider when Boole lived.
 
"Ichor, what you say may be true for those who engage in a profession that is praciticed nowhere else but in a university. If that is you definition of "academic", you have something of a point."

I suppose that was my major point and it is my everyday definition of "academic"

"Communicate about what? The price of groceries?
Why should that be any different than someone in the "work-a-day world" trying to communicate with one of the Kennedys? Or most "career" politicians for that matter? Or Paris Hilton?
Yet there are many others who likewise spend their entire working lives within a university, engaging in fields of study that are practiced elsewhere, and they regularly interact with those working in the "real world".

Point well taken. Maybe we're talking about two different things. I don't mean to say "academics" can't make themselves understood. I guess I'm saying that the type of academic, that is, one who never got out of school, has a philosophy that is not shared by those in the "real world". For instance, if you culled the faculties of the nation's colleges and universities, how many would tend to be subscribed to what is normally thought of as "left leaning" with regard to political standpoints? How many would be "right leaning"?

I really don't mean they can't communicate because they use jargon and big words......I mean they can't communicate because they simply can't understand the thought processes of Joe/Jane Bluecollar.

When you said "Communicate about what? The price of groceries? ", I immediately thought of Alan Greenspan, because when I hear him speak, regarding the nation's economy, I always wonder.......when was the last time this ivory tower sumbitch pushed a grocery cart. You see I "understand" his WORDS, he simply doesn't understand the economy from the point of the little guy. Therefore, tho' most anyone can "understand" his words, they CAN'T understand his reasoning. Therefore he is not communicating.

A few years back, Greenspan made one of his many presentations. In this one he stated that the cost of living index was being figured wrong and, therefore, Social Security recipients had been getting too much of a raise, for years. He thought that should be corrected. OoooKaay. The only thing that would make him "understand" is for him to live 5 years on the income of the average person on social security. The only thing he understands is numbers......so he has lost his ability to communicate with anyone but congressional committes, et al.
[/I]

"Why should that be any different than someone in the "work-a-day world" trying to communicate with one of the Kennedys? Or most "career" politicians for that matter?" Or Paris Hilton?"

I didn't mean to imply that it would be any different. They simply see things from a very skewed point of perception. The people you mention above are in the same boat. It's just that the faculties of major learning institutions are the pristine example of the phenomenon......and are passing these distorted ideas on to our children. I can't get the Boole link to come up.
 
I fixed the Boole link.

OK, I think that we are getting somewhere, and I think that "academic" may not be the correct term for what you mean.

You seem to troubled most by someone who claims to provide answers for societal questions yet lacks an adequate comprehension of the total society. I don't think that is a particularly uncommon condition. I could make the same complaint about the pubescent kids that knock on my door and tell me that I have to support converting the whole state to solar energy, or what-ever.

The issue is when such people are in a position to impliment those answers, or influence those who will be in that position in the future.

Greenspan is an interesting yet complicated example. Regarding his actual policies and perceptions, that has been touched upon in the "gold" thread on the political forum. That may be a better place for it.

I'd agree that he sucks at comunicating much of anything. There really isn't any reason to think that most of the members of Congress get any more out of what he says than anyone else. I actually suspect that may partly be intentional. As noted on the political thread, some of his recent actions don't seem to match up to his older writings.

I looked up his biography, and I would agree that he has spent his whole life making a living by telling others how to do things and not done things himself. I don't know that I'd condsider his private consulting firm part of academia though.

RE Greespan:

The only thing that would make him "understand" is for him to live 5 years on the income of the average person on social security. The only thing he understands is numbers......so he has lost his ability to communicate with anyone but congressional committes, et al.

This is where the bog deepens, and I must confess that I don't know where the path is--

That statement sounds suspicously close to the the arguments like "the only way for a white (or other majority ethnic group, or group perceived to be in "power") to "understand" is to be a colored (or minority, or whatever) person in this country", that the "leftists" you mention so often bring up.

This is another failure of communication--one that some say can never be corrected.

Of course the same could be said of a person that has lived their whole life within a large metropolitan city vs one who has lived in the country.I may currently live in a highly populated suburb of a large city, but I think it would be true to say that I haven't a complete concept of what it would be like living in downtown Manhattan.

Anyway, I don't know what the term is for the people I've described and who I think you refer too. "Academic" seems overly inclusive. Hubris seems to be one of their traits though.
 
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