Dating a Herder Bowie

Trubetzkoy · Jun 5, 2022

Hello everybody,

I wanted to kindly ask for your wisdom to help date an oldie I bought recently, made by the German company F. Herder Abr. Sohn. The knife in question is a traditional Bowie knife that looks very similar to the typical full-tang antler Bowies made for many years by the English company Joseph Rodgers & Sons, such as this one. Below I'm including some pictures (the first one was taken after some light cleaning and oiling while the other three are from the original listing):

As you can see, it's indeed very similar to the Joseph Rodgers & Sons design: around 8" flat-ground clip-point blade; full-tang construction with antler scales, five pins, and an oval escutcheon plate; ball-ended German-silver guard; and German-silver-fitted leather sheath. The most notable difference I can see, other than the stamp on the ricasso, is that the belt loop on the sheath is in what would typically be regarded as the left-handed side.

Since this kind of knife was made through several decades, it's hard to tell which period exactly the piece belongs to based strictly on the design. However, I think it's safe to date it between the late 19th century and early 20th century, based on the style, condition, country of origin, and maker's mark. Regarding the last point, as you'll be able to see in the fourth picture, the blade has "F. Herder A. Sn Solingen" stamped on the ricasso, with two crossed keys between the name of the brand and the city of manufacture. Although I think this logo is not too helpful in and of itself, since German Wikipedia only says it was "added later on" (along with the fork logo, besides the older and more familiar Ace of Spades one), it's interesting to note in this connection that the knife doesn't have "Germany" stamped on it. This suggests that, if the knife was made for the US (which is where I bought it, and which would make sense given the prototypically American [as conceived in Sheffield] design), it would be a pre-1890s piece. Moreover, even if the knife was not made for the American market, I think the lack of a "Germany" stamp supports the hypothesis that it is indeed an older exemplar, since as far as I know European makers started to stamp the country of origin as a generalized practice at some point in the 1990s (please correct me if I'm wrong).

Searching for similar knives by the same company, I've been able to find a few listings, such as this one, this one, this one, and this one (I only include inactive listings to avoid breaking the forum's rules). Sizes vary, but the design is always pretty much the same (except for the bone handle on the last one), with the stamp on the ricasso being identical in all cases and three out of the fourth sheaths having the same construction with the belt loop (or what's left of it) on the same side. As for dates, one listing says 1800s, while another says early 1900s.

If anybody has any information they could share about this piece, or more generally about Herder Bowie knives, I would very much appreciate it.

Cheers,
C.

Edit: Image links fixed, yet again.

Trubetzkoy · Jun 7, 2022

Hey folks,

I've continued doing research on this knife, and I've found some interesting information and data, though the picture is still not entirely clear.

Regarding the crossed-keys mark, I've found two relevant pieces of information. According to a post in the All about Pocket Knives forum, by the user kootenay joe (I haven't checked if he posts here), J. Anthony Carter's book German Knife and Sword Makers, 1850-1945 lists this logo as having been registered in 1848. I also found the following image while searching further information, which shows the logo in question with the date 1895:

This indicates that the knife could potentially be from the 1800s, although, to be sure, I wouldn't go too far back within that century in my speculations. That being said, I've also been able to find Herder knives from the Third Reich period with the crossed keys, and of course without the word Germany, such as the ones pictured below:

Without relevant historical catalog information, an important question to ask in this context is whether my Bowie is a US export or not, given that since the 1890s all legal imports in this country must come with the country of origin visibly marked onto them. According to a listing I found yesterday (which I won't link to avoid breaking the forum's rules), "Friedrich Herder Solingen Germany made Bowie Knifes [sic] for the American and European market," which makes sense if we consider we're talking about Bowie knives after all. In order to further explore this question, I figured a good idea would be to write down all listings I could find, both active and inactive, of Herder Bowies similar to mine (i.e., with a crossguard and full-tang construction) and see where they were from. I Googled the following terms: Herder Bowie; Herder hunting knife; Herder Bowiemesser (the latter word meaning 'Bowie knife'); and Herder Jagdmesser (the latter word meaning 'hunting knife'). This yielded a modest total of eight listings. Counting these together with the listing through which I purchased my knife, we seem to get the interesting statistic of seven listings from the US, one from Belgium, and one from Argentina, of which all listings containing large and clear enough images show the same mark on the ricasso, without Germany. Thus, the hypothesis that my knife is a US import and, consequently, was made before the 1890s doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Anyways, sorry for the huge posts, and please share any insights you may have!

Trubetzkoy · Oct 10, 2022

Quick update: not a Herder, but I recently found this Böker in the same pattern (i.e., the Joseph Rodgers & Sons pattern), being sold in Argentina, though it is in much poorer condition:

This one has no "Germany" or "Deutschland" mark either, but is advertised as a 20th-century piece. I'm not sure what to make of the blade stamp; going by Mark Zalesky's stamps guide, it seems to be a hybrid between G9 and G17, which would allow dating this knife anywhere between 1869 and 1930. Perhaps dating German import Bowies based on whether the country of manufacture is stamped on the blade is not as straightforward as with English Bowies, or perhaps different practices were followed when exporting to countries other than the US.

Anyways, if anyone can share any insights about either of these Bowies I'd very much appreciate it. Forgive me if I tag you here, H herder , since we haven't met or spoken, but looking at your posts I reckon you're quite knowledgeable on German knives.

herder · Oct 10, 2022

Trubetzkoy, Those are two nice examples of German Bowie knives and I would date both to the early 1900s.
I do not have an exact catalog illustration for either model, but do have similar German illustrations to help in dating your examples.
Although I have access to many old German knife catalogs dating back to the mid-1800s, most are meant for the German or European markets.
So, models meant for the U.S. market such as Bowie knives, are not often shown in those old German catalogs. There are many other fixed-blade models shown though that are European designs.
While I have no paperwork showing the F. Herder Bowie knife, enclosed is a catalog illustration from R. Herder (German but not related) from the early 1920s which shows a nearly identical model with the ball end guards.
With regards to the Boker Bowie knife, I would recommend buying the "Boker" book that I wrote with my good friend and Boker historian, Ricky Ray. It can be found online or at "Knife Magazine".
I'm not trying to push the book as much as it would be easier for me and you to read through the Bowie knife chapter of the book to give you a better understanding of Boker's relationship to the Bowie knife.

Enclosed are pictures of a couple of my German Bowie knives that are similar to yours, along with an illustration of the R. Herder Bowie knife that I mentioned already.

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Trubetzkoy · Oct 10, 2022

That is incredibly helpful, H herder , thank you so much! Lovely knives the ones you shared, and the sheath pattern shown in the R. Herder catalog looks great -- very German indeed. I will definitely get your book, too, even though I happen to only own one Böker knife (the Grabendolch reproduction they make nowadays).

One thing I did notice in the picture you shared is that your F. Herder does have Germany stamped on the ricasso, unlike mine. Wouldn't that be expected if my knife had been exported to the US in the 20th century? (In the case of the spear-point Böker you show, I imagine the absence of a country mark is due to it being an Arbolito piece for the Latin American market, though I suppose I'll learn more about that when I get your book!)