Dealer promised delivery dates

G

gk2410

Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
146
This week I took the time to contact several makers to get an update on delivery for knives that I had ordered. These aren't recent orders, having been made between 24 to 36 (or more) months ago. I should point out that the delivery dates provided by each maker are long, LONG past, but each call I made ended with the same result, "I should be getting to your order soon"....

I'm not going to name names, as this isn't a post intended for the "good, bad, and ugly forum", but to maybe start an honest dialog about the expectations a customer should have, and the commitment a maker should have to that customer.

I would expect a businessman (and a maker is in business) to be able to provide a fairly reasonable estimate of their backlog and when delivery could be expected. I know there are a lot of unforeseen variables that can affect a makers time lines, but this isn't a case of one maker's illness, or moving, or whatever that could have caused a delay, but an on-going issue.

Why would my (and your) delivery date keep getting pushed out by months or years, yet that same maker will appear at shows every few months with a half dozen or more knifes that he is putting on the table to sell. In many cases these are knives that are identical in style to orders that I or you have placed, yet our orders remain unfilled.

This practice wouldn't be acceptable to us in the "real world" side of our lives, but seems to be an accepted norm in the knife world. I'm certainly not going to go pout and cancel my order, as there is a long line of takers behind me, and the makers probably know that, but to what standard of honesty and business practice should we hold the makers?
 
Hi Greg. This subject was fully addressed in a recent thread. You may want to look over it to perhaps answer your question. My thoughts on the matter are below.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529812

IMO, waiting list/orders mean different things to different makers.

Some keep an accurate list and would not vary from them for anything in the world and dedicate a certain % of their time for filling these orders.

Some keep list but don't particularly follow them, in that they choose knives from the list they feel like making. For example, if a maker feels like making an upscale gentleman's Bowie he just looks for one among his orders.

Some just fill orders when things are slow or between shows.

Some keep list however will slip in a good customer or make something from a customer's design that interest them. I see nothing wrong with this. If a collector is consistently buying say $10,000-$20,000 a year with a maker, why would he/she make this collector wait behind someone that's buying a single knife or an inexpensive piece. In most all businesses the best customers get preferential treatment. Look at the airlines frequent flier and hotel clubs.

Some take orders knowing they will never fill them. In the past, I have ordered a knife and called say a year latter and the maker not only didn't remember what I ordered but didn't remember me.

I would recommend makers just be straight-up with collectors and say 2-4 years unless something happens? Because things do happen. I have always found it best to promise a little and deliver a lot. Good communication between maker and collector at time of order may help to avoid conflict latter. Ask the maker what is his procedures for filling orders.

I would recommend to collectors to "never give a deposit up front" unless you are requesting something that the maker could not readily sell.

As with most things, there's advantages and dis-advantages with buying direct form the maker.
 
Delays in delivery dates have never really bothered me too much. With custom knifemakers, I've always been under the impression (since I started collecting custom knives about 3 years ago) that filling orders is secondary to making knives for shows, working on new models and mechanisms, and advancement of their craft anyway.
 
commodorewheeler said:
Delays in delivery dates have never really bothered me too much. With custom knifemakers, I've always been under the impression (since I started collecting custom knives about 3 years ago) that filling orders is secondary to making knives for shows, working on new models and mechanisms, and advancement of their craft anyway.
Click to expand...

Agree .......
 
commodorewheeler said:
Delays in delivery dates have never really bothered me too much. With custom knifemakers, I've always been under the impression (since I started collecting custom knives about 3 years ago) that filling orders is secondary to making knives for shows, working on new models and mechanisms, and advancement of their craft anyway.
Click to expand...

I agree. I would rather a maker work on my special piece when they feel like doing that type knife rather than rushing them.

IMO, patience is the secret to success in any type of collecting. For the new collector, it's patience in acquiring your first pieces and in the experienced collector it's patience in acquiring those special order pieces from makers.

It can be very difficult however having patience for either scenario.
 
Delivery dates are just place holders to me. It is my place relative to others that have also placed orders. Things happen, shows need to be attended, with knives, all can push dates to the right. I woudl like the maker to let me know, but unless things get really out of hand, I will not get upset. I expect that Art takes time and those whop have the talent will do what it takes to create a piece I would be proud of. Quality over schedule is important to me. Steven
 
Hi Greg,

First, please change the title of the thread as you are talking about MAKERS...not DEALERS.

I would expect a businessman (and a maker is in business)
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Second: No, unfortunately makers for the most part are not business men. They are makers, craftsmen and/or artisans. Do not confuse these with a business men. Yes, there are a few very adept business men who are also makers. However that is not usually the case.

This practice wouldn't be acceptable to us in the "real world" side of our lives,
Click to expand...

Third, you are not in the real world...you are in the world of collectibles. Do not confuse the two.

In many cases these are knives that are identical in style to orders that I or you have placed, yet our orders remain unfilled.
Click to expand...

Fourth, this is exactly why Kevin says you do not give a deposit. Your knife is taken to the show...if it is sold, so be it. Your deposit has already been spent where as this is full price for your knife. If the knife doesn't sell...you may be getting a phone call that your knife is done.

I'm certainly not going to go pout and cancel my order, as there is a long line of takers behind me, and the makers probably know that, but to what standard of honesty and business practice should we hold the makers?
Click to expand...

Greg, you can't complain when you are part of the problem. You complain here, but won't cancel your order or name names???? You keep getting pushed to the rear because the maker knows you will take it.

As you say in the "Real World" you would have fired this person and found a replacement.

Since you didn't name names, and I may be way off here, I suspect this is a very popular maker. Who if you can get your knife will be able to turn it quickly for a nice profit. If this is the case, keep the knife on order and jsut understand you get it when you get it. If it is not, fire the maker and find someone else to make the knife. As every time you look at that knife i will only piss you off.

In my book I wrote than when placing an order you should enter into a written contract with a maker. This covers both parties.

You have the right to expect to receive a knife in a specified time frame. If the maker doesn't meet the time frame. You have the prerogative to extend the time frame or cancel the order.

If the maker completes the knife and you cannot pay...the maker has the prerogative to either allow you more time to pay or sell it to someone else.

Like you I used to make the mistake of sending a maker a deposit. After a couple of hard learned lessons I stopped doing that. Unless as others have said you are asking for some type of special materials to be used.

Oh and don't forget to change the name of the thread. :D

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
OK guys, I'm watching this thread. Sure hoping for some revelation.

I hate when people are late, myself included, but I have to admit I am behind on my list of orders. This is the most stressful part of knifemaking for me.

Most of you posting seem to be pretty understanding though.

Lin
 
As long as you don't take someones money or property in trade in advance Lin, its OK!

It was eloquently explained to me once by a veteran in the business that there is no such thing as a "custom knife emergency". Most of us have more than one to fall back on ;)
 
I have never had a problem with makers taking longer to make my knives than was originally thought. Delivery dates are estimates, unless a deposit has been required. If I pay a deposit, I expect my knife to be on time, unless there's a good reason.

I consider my knife, and the knives a maker takes to shows, to be seperate. It doesn't bother me that a maker is taking knives to shows, even if he/she is a few months behind in his/her orders. The longest I have waited for a knife beyond the estimated delivery date was about a year. There was good reason, so it didn't bother me.

One thing that shouldn't happen is for makers to give potential customers delivery dates that they know there is no way they are going to be able to live up to. This is done for fear of putting off the customer that doesn't want to wait a long time to get their knife. I don't think very many makers do this, but I suspect that some do.

If you have a problem with makers not delivering reasonably near the time the said they would, getting your custom knives at shows, or from dealers, might be the best way to go.
 
A collector told me the other day that he had 5 orders or 5 spots on a single maker's list.
I found that interesting.
Perhaps a reason many makers are so backed -up on their orders.
How do makers and you other collectors feel about multiple same maker orders?
 
Kevin Jones said:
A collector told me the other day that he had 5 orders or 5 spots on a single maker's list.
I found that interesting.
Perhaps a reason many makers are so backed -up on their orders.
How do makers and you other collectors feel about multiple same maker orders?
Click to expand...


Ok Kevin who do you have five orders in with? :D

I think makers should put a limit of how many current orders a single person can have. Say the maker has a two year wait, the collector can have five orders in but only get a knife every 1.5 to 2 years. I think that is fair.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I would rather a maker work on my special piece when they feel like doing that type knife rather than rushing them.

IMO, patience is the secret to success in any type of collecting. For the new collector, it's patience in acquiring your first pieces and in the experienced collector it's patience in acquiring those special order pieces from makers.
Click to expand...

Pretty much sums it up for me.
Bob
 
severedthumbs said:
Ok Kevin who do you have five orders in with? :D

I think makers should put a limit of how many current orders a single person can have. Say the maker has a two year wait, the collector can have five orders in but only get a knife every 1.5 to 2 years. I think that is fair.
Click to expand...

To answer your question, the most knives I have ever had on order at a given time with one maker is two.
I currently have a fixed-blade and a folder on order with the same maker.
That's why the five interested me as it's usually one at a time for me.
 
Kevin Jones said:
To answer your question, the most knives I have ever had on order at a given time with one maker is two.
I currently have a fixed-blade and a folder on order with the same maker.
That's why the five interested me as it's usually one at a time for me.
Click to expand...

Kevin I was just kidding with you.
 
I do have 5 orders with a knifemaker .. and will be delivered within a month in the future (about 5 years) .. :) and then once every six months.
 
Evening all. I am with Lin on this one, kind of waiting to see where it goes, and hoping for some good ideas. I for one do not take deposits, I do not feel the customer should pay for something that is not even made yet. In all probability it will be, but something could happen. I keep an order book with the orders in it listing the approximate delivery date. I also notify by e-mail usually, when the start date is coming up. I then send updates via e-mail as to progress of the knife and then the finished piece. Like Lin I am also behind on orders, but I try to balance orders and show pieces and it can get tough. Like Les said " most knifemakers are not businessmen", I am included in that group. I just try to do the best I can. I agree with Lin, it is stressful.
Thank you all for your patience.
Brion
 
there's not many makers out there that I would want 5+ knives from, especially in the tactical folder scene. I guess I'm not into the whole love fest thing.
 
Given the amount of money we're talking about, I'd rather the maker be a tad late than a tad early.
 
Ok, let me throw a little support to Lin and Brion here.

I have been buying knives from them for the last 2-3 years.

I have written articles for Blade (Lin) and Knives Illustrated (Brion).

I constantly have orders in with them. When we can meet up at a show, they always deliver on time.

Away from the shows...at most 4-6 weeks late. Gentlemen take it from someone who has placed more orders than he can remember...4-6 weeks is excellent.

Both always call or email or both to let me know if there is a delay (communication is one of the keys of a professional).

Brion, hate to break it to you buddy, but you and Lin are both businessmen. Don't sell yourselves short.

It is truly a joy to work with makers like Brion and Lin.

Now back to work both of you...your orders are late! :D :D :D

In another thread I wrote about talking with makers and all it takes is a couple minutes to figure out if they will be successful or not. Both of these makers passed with flying colors.

However, there is no reason to contact them to place an order. I have 40 knives on order with each maker. LOL :D :D :D

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
 
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