Dear Cold Steel, Why no DLC on O1?

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Dec 27, 2013
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I was looking at the Recon Scout and an older black Trail Master today and wondered why you don't switch or actually start doing DLC on the O1 knives? You guys do it on the D2 Leatherneck which is at least semi stainless and from some manufacturers has a high enough chromium content to be considered stainless. It easily has a ton more corrosion resistance than O1. The DLC on my recent folders with CTS-XHP is very nice and has held up insanely well, about a billion times better than that Tuff-ex coating.

My TM in O1 hasn't had a spot of corrosion yet on the steel but I've been very liberal and vigilant with the oil. The brass guard showed up with some serious stains but it's a user so I just lived with it. It'd be nice to not have to worry so much about rust. DLC on a TM or RS would part me from my cash with ease! I'd pick up another TM and get a RS for sure if they came with DLC. That DLC with a brass guard would look pretty nice too!

So, are you guys are planning on doing DLC on the O1 steel knives?
 
My guess is they just havent gotten that far yet. I´m guessing we´ll see more changes to current models next year along with new models.
 
Is dlc a rust protector though? Seem to have read many times that dlc isnt? So from a durable coating standpoint.... good........but blade corrosion protection not so. Im no expert on coatings though....maybe some expert will expand true or not routine....
 
I think DLC is mainly for wear resistance. I guess it might also make the steel "slipperier." I don't think it has any anti-corrosion properties. Not totally sure, but I too recall reading something along these lines here in the past.
 
Is dlc a rust protector though? Seem to have read many times that dlc isnt? So from a durable coating standpoint.... good........but blade corrosion protection not so. Im no expert on coatings though....maybe some expert will expand true or not routine....

From what I've come across it protects against corrosion?

Here is the link-http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=4125#_Corrosion_Resistance_of

Here is the text-
Corrosion Resistance of Diamond-Like Carbon Coatings
Corrosion resistance is measured by exposure for 24 hours to 10% NaCl solution at 150°F and 15% HCl at room temperature. Figure 6 (a and b) shows optical micrograph of a coated 1020CS sample after exposure to HCl and brine solutions showing that DLC-Si coating provide excellent corrosion protection for the substrate. It is because DLC is chemically inert and acts as a physical barrier between the substrate and corrosion environment provided coating defects are minimized. It can also be noted that there is no corrosive undercut from the Rockwell C indent that was intentionally done to breach the coating, or from the exposed edges of the saw cut section, indicating the good adhesion and chemical inertness of the coating layer, at the interface with the substrate, as suggested by the TEM images.

Sour Autoclave Corrosion Test for Diamond-Like Carbon Coatings
Another corrosion test which the coating has been subjected to is a sour autoclave per NACE TM0185 standard. This is a three phase test (aqueous phase – distilled water, oraganic phase – xylene, gas phase – 1% H2S, 85% CO2, 14% methane) which is done at high pressure. Figure 7 shows the film (entry, middle & exit film of the pipe) before and after this aggressive test. It can be noted that the coating passed the NACE standard test with no damage or blistering of the coating occurring and additionally passed the standard 67V pinhole test before and after autoclave exposure. This test is well known within the oil and gas industry as a good measure of how corrosion resistant the coating is.

Conclusions
A novel hollow cathode plasma immersion ion processing method is developed and used to deposit silicon containing diamond like carbon (DLC-Si) films inside a one foot long 1020CS pipe with 1.75 inch diameter. A layered coating structure was developed, including an improved adhesion layer with good mixing of substrate and coating constituents, to improve adhesion of the coating while a DLC top layer provided excellent wear and friction characteristics. Data showed that such a coating provides excellent corrosion protection to internal surfaces of pipes. Application of this coating technology is in industries such as oil and gas, tribological and corrosion performance improvement is expected for components such as pump barrels, downhole pipes, drilling fixtures, and drilling bores, etc.

A complete set of references is available be referring to the source document.




Authors: B. Boardman, K. Boinapally, T. Casserly, M. Gupta, C. Dornfest, D. Upadhyaya, Y. Cao and

M. Oppus

Source: Corrosion and Mechanical Properties of Diamond-Like Carbon Films Deposited Inside Carbon Steel Pipes by Sub-One Technology


Here is the link to what Michael Janich had to say over on Spyderco's forum-https://www.spyderco.com/forumII/viewtopic.php?t=61572

Here's the text-
DLC (Diamond-Like Carbon) is molecularly bonded to the surface of the material and will not "chip off if hit hard enough." It also does in fact increase corrosion resistance.

For a more technical explanation of the process used to apply it and the benefits of the coating itself, I went to IonBond, the folks who developed it. This is from their web site:

PACVD Technology

PACVD (Plasma Assisted Chemical Vapor Deposition) is a vacuum based process used to deposit DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coatings, also known as ADLC (Amorphous Diamond-Like Carbon). All educts of the PACVD process are gaseous. This makes it suitable for coating 3D components uniformly, without the need for rotation as is necessary in PVD.

The coatings are amorphous in structure and contain around 70% sp3 bondings, which accounts for the high hardness of the coating (10-40 GPa).

The PACVD process is used for coating a very broad range of conductive and non-conductive substrate materials at temperatures below 200° C. The typical thickness is in the range of 2 – 3 µm.

DLC coatings feature excellent hardness, wear and low friction properties under dry or deficient lubrication conditions. They are ideally suited for tribological systems found in engines, machines and other mechanical assemblies with sliding and rolling movements. The perfect surface finish without any post-treatment makes them ideal for high precision injection molding tools as well as for decorative purposes. DLC is chemically inert and biocompatible which allows for its application on medical components and implants.

Broad range of substrate materials
No distortion of high precision substrates
No post treatment necessary
Gaseous process for uniform coating of 3D geometries without rotation
Green technology with respect to educts, process and products

Here's a link to additional information that substantiates its qualities of hardness, adherence, and corrosion resistance:

http://www.renishaw.com/advancedmaterials/en/diamond-like-carbon-coatings--14211

In my previous job, many of the knives we produced were DLC coated--including DLC-coated A2 tool-steel blades. I saw many of these that had seen extensive hard use in tactical environments. The DLC held up extremely well. Even when the exposed steel at the edges of blades was allowed to corrode, the corrosion did not "bubble" under the DLC like conventional coating or plating processes and stopped where the DLC started.

I hope this helps.

Stay safe,

Mike
 
^yep. If we can get decent pricing im all for that.
 
This is very interesting and I appreciate information.

Could you also speak to DLC as a relates to helping rust resistance?

NONE/ZERO/ZIP of the Family of Vacuum Deposited Coatings ARE GOOD Corrosion Barriers, That being said, these coatings can’t rust because these is no presents of Iron/Ferrite in the coating itself.. It’s a coating only 2-4 Microns in thickness with microscopic pin holes, corrosion can start there and on the cutting edge migrating under the coating causing rust…

The Benefit of coatings for corrosion is they absorb oil like a sponge, Maintain your knife, rinse it off from time to time and reapply a coat of oil, wipe dry and you’ll have Great Corrosion Protection…

We all want a knife that, Won't Rust, Light Weight, Stays Sharp forever, with the latest materials.. It doesn't exist, But were working on it... almost forgot.. For Under $100.00 Made in the USA...

Darrell
......
 
^thanks for posting. that fellow would know. Guess we are back to no corrosion protection. So 3v needed.;)
 
rycen, Is that just Ionbond's findings and experience with their version of DLC coatings? I read a paper some time ago when I first heard of DLC coatings. I know it was medical in nature but still applies as it involved martensitic steel. I found it-http://www.archivesmse.org/vol28_5/2856.pdf

Here is the pertinent text-
The research revealed that the suggested variants of surface
treatment influence the corrosion resistance of the X39Cr13 steel
intended for surgical drills. The highest corrosion resistance was
observed for the barrel finished, passivated and DLC coated
samples obtained by means of the magnetron method – Table 1,
Fig. 2 The increase of the corrosion resistance is mainly caused by
the applied chemical treatment (the passivation process). The
DLC coating deposited by means of the RF PACVD method was
characterized by the best mechanical properties. Hardness of these
coating was in the range 711 ÷ 939 HV – Table 2. Reasearch on
the surface topography by means of the confocal laser scanning
microscope showed, that suggest surface treatment (barrel
finishing, passivation and DLC coating by means of RF PACVD
and magnetron method) ensure smooth surface of samples.

An awful lot of companies that do DLC coatings are claiming corrosion resistance, so I'm wondering if it's a case of different ways to skin a cat? I'm not sure if it could be application process or chemical makeup that makes the difference as far as corrosion resistance or if it's something altogether different that they're calling DLC because it's established nomenclature?
 
I noticed today while going through my mail that the new Special Projects summer sale flyer had the Warcraft Tanto for sale. Part of the description reads- "The Warcraft is also DLC coated (Diamond like Coating) to make it highly rust and scratch resistant, while also reducing glare and minimizing friction." I thought I'd check on CS's site and it had a different description that was even more specific about the DLC coating they put on their Warcraft Tanto.

Here is an excerpt from Cold Steel's own product description for the Warcraft Tanto on their site (Link-http://www.ltspecpro.com/Product/13TL/Warcraft_Tanto.aspx)

"The Warcraft Tanto is then DLC coated – Our DLC (Diamond Like Coating) is not only highly rust and scratch resistant but reduces glare and minimizes friction when cutting while making the blade incredibly hard.

During the testing process for this knife our R&D team left a prototype exposed to the elements deep in the Pennsylvania woods. After 3 months the blade was immaculate!"

If true (I didn't see it myself, but considering how over the top CS does everything else it's certainly possible) that means that the DLC they use has a very good chance of corrosion resistance. Pennsylvania isn't the Pacific Ocean but it has plenty of humidity, rain, and snow through the year that 3 months at any time of year would be detrimental to just about any non stainless steel. 3V certainly isn't stainless so I'd expect it to corrode or rust when left out in the open for 3 months.

I wish someone from CS would chime in and give us some more info, as specially concerning my original question;)
 
I noticed today while going through my mail that the new Special Projects summer sale flyer had the Warcraft Tanto for sale. Part of the description reads- "The Warcraft is also DLC coated (Diamond like Coating) to make it highly rust and scratch resistant, while also reducing glare and minimizing friction." I thought I'd check on CS's site and it had a different description that was even more specific about the DLC coating they put on their Warcraft Tanto.

Here is an excerpt from Cold Steel's own product description for the Warcraft Tanto on their site (Link-http://www.ltspecpro.com/Product/13TL/Warcraft_Tanto.aspx)

"The Warcraft Tanto is then DLC coated – Our DLC (Diamond Like Coating) is not only highly rust and scratch resistant but reduces glare and minimizes friction when cutting while making the blade incredibly hard.

During the testing process for this knife our R&D team left a prototype exposed to the elements deep in the Pennsylvania woods. After 3 months the blade was immaculate!"

If true (I didn't see it myself, but considering how over the top CS does everything else it's certainly possible) that means that the DLC they use has a very good chance of corrosion resistance. Pennsylvania isn't the Pacific Ocean but it has plenty of humidity, rain, and snow through the year that 3 months at any time of year would be detrimental to just about any non stainless steel. 3V certainly isn't stainless so I'd expect it to corrode or rust when left out in the open for 3 months.

I wish someone from CS would chime in and give us some more info, as specially concerning my original question;)

Yep it would put that question to rest at least from cold steels vendors process anyways.
 
Or just make Trail Maters in 3V with DLC coating! Natchez and Laredo Bowies too while their at it.

O1 or 3V bowies are good as long as they make it an option for DLC or satin finish. I personally prefer satin finishes to any black coating. Hope they make 3v blades in satin as well.
 
ALL of my CS TM knives in O1 and CV had their blades OXPHOBLUED by YEST. They've never been touched since other than touching up with a diamond rod and I've beat the crap out of 'em. THEY DO NOT CORRODE PERIOD, look great and everyone wants to buy 'em.

And so it goes...
 
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