Deburring woe. Need some more help, please.

S

Squashfan

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Wall of text warning.

First of all, I want to thank the person who told me to push harder and use longer stroke. It has cut (ha, no pun intended) my sharpening time down A LOT.

Long story, read below for the problem.
So I have started using sharpie on my bevels as I freehand. It has super improved my technique. I was very happy with the bevels and deburr on the coarse side of my cheap alum oxide stone. On to the fine side of the stone. It cut faster than expected but, then again, the bevels very very flat by my freehanding standards. Got to the apex and generated a burr. Flipped the burr it a few times while I removed the coarser scratches. My problems started when I began deburring. Again, I thought the bevels were flat by my standards. When I began reducing the pressure, I discovered I was not removing the sharpie all the way down to the apex. No problem. I would just keep making passes at reduced pressure until I removed all of the sharpie.

The problem: When I get the sharpie removed from the bevel, it flips the burr. I can not seem to reduce the burr any when I flip it. I can still see the burr under strong light but it is really tiny. (strong light being defined as a 100 watt incandesent bulb about 6 inches from the stone.) I did some stropping, first on copy paper and then on thick cardboard/cardstock but that did help. In fact, it got to the point where I couldn't flip the burr. And I sharpied while I stroped too. It removed sharpie all the way down to the edge. I cut some paper but it didn't remove the burr either. What sould I do?
 
Increase the angle and use light pressure. This can cause a micro bevel. Just go back to sharpening at your original angle and flip side often to reduce the new burr. And finish with light pressure. And don't worry about time when finishing three edge. Pushing harder will make a burr worse or can even fracture your edge
 
What steel are you sharpening? I ask because, depending on which steel, some recommended methods for de-burring may not work as well as others. Some burrs can be 'flipped' a few times until they break away, and others might be scrubbed off in some wood. Still others will be ductile and stubborn enough that they'll need to be very gently filed away (Spyderco's VG-10 or Case's Tru-Sharp 420HC, for example); sounds like this may be the case with yours. If so, it's best to begin doing that in the last few passes on the first coarse stone, to reduce the size of it. Subsequent grit steps should be done at continually-decreasing pressure, as the edge becomes more refined. As fervens pointed out, heavier pressure will exacerbate a burr problem, either by making them bigger, or creating new burrs, even as previous ones are scrubbed off.


David
 
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In my experience the most reliable way of removing the burr is to create a small and very even one to begin with. This usually involves using a shorter pass, not a longer one, and working the edge in sections, at least after the initial grinding...

Raise it, flip it, remove with light pressure. The more times it flips, the less pressure it will take to to flip it again and again. The more likely it is you will continue to create or add to the old one as you go, by errant passes on the edge after the burr has flipped to the other side. As suggested ^ it does help to elevate the spine a touch when you first go after it, then drop back down to the target angle.

Martin
 
This is a Moki in AUS 8. So I would consider it a softer steel. What I have been doing is raising the spine until I feel the bevel rest on the stone. It seems like I can't raise the angle anymore without microbeveling. Could I just microbevel to take the burr off then just drop back to the target angle on the next stone? BTW, the next stone will be a Spyderco medium ceramic.

EDIT: I know not to use heavy pressure when finishing. That was a tip for grinding bevels faster.
 
Just go to the next stone, keep the angle the same.
Don't think of a microbevel halfway through the process. You do that on the finest stone, if neccessary.
 
Your problem might be the sharpie on the last step. I think the sharpie is great for doing your grinding and for periodically checking your progress. As you've found out, it's a great tool for checking that you are hitting the entire bevel.

But once you've raised a burr on both sides and are not simply trying to remove the burr, I think the sharpie is not only not needed, but potentially counterproductive. How are you detecting the burr? Is it reliable? Can you find the burr easily each time? If so, you don't need the sharpie. All you need is your burr detection method of choice and then a deburring method.

Suggestions for deburring methods:

1. Single strokes, or perhaps two strokes, then checking for the burr on both sides. Stop when you can detect very little or no burr.
2. Pulling the edge through soft wood, or cork. I do this in between deburring passes and it seems to strip away what I call burr remnants or "hangers". I usually go back to another method after this.
3. Ala Ken Schwartz, slide the bevel parallel to the edge on the stone. Like from hilt to tip with no front to back motion. The idea is, this will not allow the burr to be dragged towards, or away from the edge. Instead it will grind the burr straight down and hopefully not drag it or flip it.
4. Stropping on loaded leather (or substrate of your choice) can remove very small burrs or "hangers" if the wood or cork isn't working for you.
5. Back honing sometimes removes burrs from some steels, on some types of stones that forward strokes don't work on.
6. Already suggested: Raise the angle up. I feel like I'm cheating when I do this, but it does seem to work.

This list above isn't supposed to be something you do in order. It's just a list of things you can try. Though I do like to do #2 above, in between other deburring passes *and* as a final pass when I'm totally done.

Good luck and report your progress and/or questions back here. :)

Brian.
 
Squashfan said:
This is a Moki in AUS 8. So I would consider it a softer steel. What I have been doing is raising the spine until I feel the bevel rest on the stone. It seems like I can't raise the angle anymore without microbeveling. Could I just microbevel to take the burr off then just drop back to the target angle on the next stone? BTW, the next stone will be a Spyderco medium ceramic.

EDIT: I know not to use heavy pressure when finishing. That was a tip for grinding bevels faster.
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I will sometimes raise the spine for one or two very light passes to hit the bur at a better angle to get the ball rolling. I always lower the spine back to the original target angle before that burr is gone or I wind up with a microbevel. This is one of the reasons I try to plan ahead for that burr, and sort of consider the art of sharpening (at this stage) to be the art of burr management.

I try very diligently to raise the burr as even as possible, and as small as possible. I flip it once. While the attachment point is still pretty robust, is a lot easier to grind off. Keep in mind, all abrasives need a bit of pressure and movement to work - if the amount of pressure needed for whatever abrasive you are using to grind the burr off, exceeds the amount of pressure needed for the bur to flip over, its just gonna keep flipping till it breaks off or is reduced to where it can be stropped away or crushed off on a piece of wood, this can take a few.

Once it starts to flip too many times it can become a very tedious process, and my edge is never as good as it could have been if I'd gotten it cleanly from the get-go. I came to this philosophy after chasing one too many burrs for 20 or more flips - enough! I rolled up my sleeves, reground the edge and proceeded as described. It used to take me a bit longer to do it this way, but now is pretty fast.

Light pressure, short passes, break the edge down into sections, original grind angle, stop and observe often. If it starts to flip too many times, start over.

Best of luck,
Martin
 
I use a wiping motion to remove the burr once its been established the entire length of the blade. I use a diamond plate and drag the burr across the plate at just under 90 degrees to the plate. It takes a little practice but removes the burr in one motion; then on to the cardboard or hard felt.
 
I have a gray looking eraser thing that I found in my bosses old sharpening kit. Is that a firm eraser ? It was used with his old sharpener. I had no idea what it is for. I have my methods for working a burr. But always wondered about it . Do you just lightly cut into it with the weight of the blade or is this for cleaning ceramic stones? Honestly we might not even be talking about the same thing.

Rennd said:
Pull the edge through a firm eraser or just cut some wood.
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Like others said... On your last pass or two raise your angle and use as little pressure as you can. Personally, I've had a lot of success with this technique.
 
BellaBlades said:

I have a gray looking eraser thing that I found in my bosses old sharpening kit. Is that a firm eraser ? It was used with his old sharpener. I had no idea what it is for. I have my methods for working a burr. But always wondered about it . Do you just lightly cut into it with the weight of the blade or is this for cleaning ceramic stones?







[quote name="Rennd" post=13166913]Pull the edge through a firm eraser or just cut some wood.
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[/quote]



It could be. It's likely for cleaning, but it'll still work with a couple little cuts in it. If it isn't super blubbery, it'll work. It honestly doesn't matter all too much how you cut it. I usually slice it a little until the cut isn't dark, then I check if there's still a burr. If it doesn't work, I'd lightly slice some wood. Nothing dirty, though.
 
I actually may have got it. I did like you guys said and just lightly, oh so lightly, scrubbed the bevel that looked like it had a burr. I followed that up with my leather strop newly loaded with Formax green. We will see how the edge holds up to use. That is the real test. In future, I think I will try to catch the burr sooner. Wish me luck.
 
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