Defend your rights in Holland we're losing them.

Bagheera

Bagheera

Joined
Oct 6, 1998
Messages
957
Hi everyone,

I just started my Monday morning by reading the newspaper and this spoiled my day completely.
Last Friday evening the Police put up barricades around the center of a big city and frisked 15000 to 20000 people and everybody carrying anything bigger then a toothpick had their dangerous articles removed and confiscated.
These included even the tiniest SAK's with a 1.5" tiny blade and scissors. Somebody even got one he inherited !! confiscated. Also included was a set of Darts, that guy couldn't play darts anymore.

We are definetely going the wrong way, normal people are losing there rights and nobody is doing anything against it.
On the otherhand criminals get free because some stupid attorney general spelled his name incorrect or get a sentence of 5 years prison for shooting through a door of a disco because he wasn't allowed in, killing 2 young women.
I'm very afraid that we are losing basic rights because the government isn't capable anymore of punishing the real criminals.
If somebody would know that if he ever used a knife to harm somebody, just for fun or because he wanted his money and so on, he would go to prison for 25 years and not get aquited because somebody misspelled his name or even get a 6 week alternative sentence, cleaning gardens or so, that somebody would not use the knife.

Guys I'm so afraid of loosing the little freedoms we have that I'm finding it difficult to write rationally.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to tell you.

Greetings from Holland, Bagheera


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Bagheera, you have communicated the situation well, have no fear of that. What city was it in? What was the reasoning behind the action? I am very curios, as I enjoyed my visit to your country several years ago and am alarmed at the approach to civil liberties that your Government is taking.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
I'm saddened but not entirely surprised. My own country - Israel - has no Bill of Rights, so authorities here are free to impose many measures Americans are blessed not to be familiar with. However, it still sounds rather extreme.
What was the so-called justification for the police action?

mosh
 
I am with you Bagheera, I too fear our rights to carry an edged TOOL will be lost. Our government is stepping up its efforts to ban all perceived weapons, with campaigns to hand in your 'weapons': in the TV commercial they show a sporting equipment, a baseball bat being handed in and so on.

It all seems a reaction to incidents that either involved handguns or beatings (some fatal). I cannot recall any knives being used in those incidents. Illogical, does not compute!! I even heared that the Mayor of Amsterdam wanted knife shops in the city to remove all nkives from their displays in the windows!!! Well, this measure has not passed yet.

I have thought about getting a small knife like a Spyderco dragonfly for utility chores when people are around, but in the present climate, I won't buy that knife and rather use my LM Wave. We need a Dutch AKTI! Or would AKTI grow into an international organization? probably not I guess.

Greetings from Holland.

PS the searches in Eindhoven(?) Bagheera mentioned were all on a voluntary basis, and considered illegal by law experts on the news, so no court cases can evolve from the searches.
 
Hi StJames, Mosh,

Just as MRBLONDE told you the City was Eindhoven and I didn't know it was a voluntary search because if it was why the hell did they then take small SAK's and confiscated them?
I know how it works they take it from you do important and tell you if you give it up (the knife I mean) there will be no future changes.
Even if it's not legal doing these searches, you lost your knife and more important for me you lose your dignity as a law abiding citizen.
I pay those guys with my TAX money and I pay them a lot
frown.gif
and they aren't able to get the bad guys and put them away so now they are focussing on the normal citizens because they are easy to get.
Let me make one thing clear, a person going into a disco with an icepick should be put away for a considerable time (unless he's the bartender who uses the icepick of course
wink.gif
)
but I think it's absolutely crazy that even the smallest SAK's got confiscated.

It's true what MRBLONDE writes about the current TV commercials to have ctizens give up knives, honkbal bats, hockeysticks and whatever can be used to harm somebody.
On the other hand criminals just laugh about these government actions, they keep on molesting people even killing them and the HIGHEST punishment you can get in Holland is 15 years prison but then you must have really went on a good bloody killing trip to get that much. You have a good chance that because of some form error you get free or because of a bad childhood you get a reduced sentence.
My parents taught me right and wrong I feel that this development in our society is a wrong way to go.
Best regards,
Bagheera

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It's a cultural truism that people always get the sort of government that they want. I don't know what sort of government they have in Holland, but I'm certain it's a democracy. The current laws in that country and in our country are a reflection of the desires of its voters. It's the will of the majority. Of course the majority isn't always right, just think of the Nazis. So, in short, if you don't like the laws, elect different politicians. Ones who will do what you think is right. People have to make a choice: do they want safety, or do they want freedom, and in what proportions? It seems that today people place safety as the highest priority. Well, as someone once said, "If you give up freedom for a temporary security then you will have neither". Unfortunately the societal trend is for more control and less freedom. That suits a lot of people perfectly, but not on this forum, I guess.

One thing you can bet on, it will only get worse.
 
StJames,

I stand 110% behind your words.

I still remember a slogan students put on a technical University in, just the city they checked the 20000 people, Eindhoven.
I must have been about 12 years old because my father was teaching there architecture/building design and he sometimes took me with him on a I believe Wednesday to eat in the mensa of the university Indonesian food. It's about 30 years ago and the slogan was translated roughly (I'm sorry) into English:

"Satisfied slaves are the worst enemy of freedom."

And that slogan gets more true each day. I think that I will see in my lifetime people getting tagged by some encapsulated microchip/transponder and any and all moves and all one buys, does being collected and regulated by our precious government.
Anybody knows that democrately elected governments sometimes are very creative in seeing to it that a certain fear people have gets exploited and used to push certain laws that otherwise would never be accepted. We live in an age that 10 minutes TV can completely influence someone to agree with otherwise never agreed upon changes in ones own freedom.
Enough said, I love knives but also lots of other things and just as I don't like whales to disappear I'd like my childrens children to be able to carry their first small SAK after I taught them how to use it and without doubt after having put bandaids on small cuts along the way.
Bagheera



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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
Bagheera, I'll be visiting Amsterdam in February. Do you think it's safe to bring my 2-7/8" bladed Sebenza into Holland? I love my "benz" and I want it to be a world traveler but I sure as hell don't want to lose it while I'm there. Do you think Dutch customs will say anything if I try to bring it into the country in a carry on bag?
 
Root, I would strongly recommend that you put your Sebeza in the checked luggage.

I have managed to travel with my Leatherman micra attached to my keys through the security checkpoints in Copenhagen and Stockholm. I tossed the keychain along with my watch and stuff in the basket aside the metal detectors and the security personel never gave my things a second look. But a tiny Micra is nether very eye-catching nor dangerous looking.

But I wouldn't risk such an expensive knife as a Sebenza.

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Tea drinker and hellraiser from Northern Sweden, above the arctic circle.

 
Root, you can without any problems get it thru customs in Holland. But I would strongly advise you not to carry it in your pocket during your visit of cities like Amsterdam. I feel ashamed having to say this to you. The tendency of the general public increased by media coverage and tactically placed advertisements and tv commercials is having such an effect that anybody carrying a knife in public is practically seen as a criminal. On the other hand I carry my Large Sebenza and although I wouldn't want to lose it I would fight legally up to our supreme court when they would confiscate it in some stupid police action. I would really give them hell and I can garantuee that my face would appear on TV and my words would be in news papers. The last time such razzia's were helt was in WW II when the Germans did that and having lost a couple of uncle's in WW II one in Dachau I for one don't relish the way things are happening lately.
Bets regards, and leave your small Sebenza at home, Bagheera

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[This message has been edited by Bagheera (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
So people voluntarily let the police search them and take their property? By the thousands? Is there a "Netherlands Civil Liberties Union" there to raise a stink?
redface.gif


And how will people eat, after they've rounded up all the knives?

[blasphemous and biologically improbable expletives deleted]


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001


[This message has been edited by James Mattis (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
James, I wouldn't say voluntary at all, you want to go into a certain region of the city and the only way to get in is have yourself frisked, if you refuse you can turn around and go home.
It's the same principle as boarding an international airliner, you either go thru security if youi refuse you don't go.
Only we have rights and police have to keep themselves to these rights. And frisking people WITHOUT any clear indication of them having done something criminal or some drug related thing is forbidden. ONLY customs can frisk people without these clear circumstances. So what does our nivce police, they ask their customs colleagues to assist them so the frisking without any clear indication is "legal"
frown.gif
.

Cheers, Bagheera

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Sorry to hear that. What Klootzaks dreamt up that idea in the first place? Is there any legal recourse? I walked around Amsterdam with a big Opinel in my pocket (1987) & had no problems. Best of luck,
Tot Ziens,
Mike

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Runs With Scissors
AKTI# A000107
 
No, you're not "losing" them, you've already lost them and probably for good.

Let me explain why:

Weapons have a net POSITIVE benefit on society. The "ruling class" doesn't like admitting this, but it's true. Criminals SHOULD live in fear of counter-attack and in a place like Holland, they don't. The overall level of violence in your society is low, that's because you've got a generally high standard of living and a mostly non-violent culture. Holland lacks large numbers of immigrants from countries with a more violent culture, unlike the US.

Gun control itself has NOTHING to do with violence levels. Not a single dang thing. Mexico has gun control as heavy as Holland if not worse, and a murder rate triple the US rate. The Swiss have very little gun control and violence rates down near Holland's.

Being armed against violent people helps CONTROL the violence, not escalate it. Remember that a gun has more economic value to a criminal than to an ordinary citizen, therefore ANY gun or weapons control law will have more of an impact on honest citizens.

So long as Holland doesn't recognize that people have a right to defend themselves against armed attack, "weapons" restrictions will spiral out-of-control.

Why?

Because in any balance of judgement that's seen as a choice between "safety" and "people's need for a utility tool", the "tool" use will lose out. ALWAYS. In the US, weapons control advocates have to balance the "public safety danger" of weapons with the "public safety BENEFIT" of armed defense. The scales are far more even, or come down in favor of defense. That's why we now have 31 states where people can at least get permits to carry a loaded gun concealed in public.

There's a scandal breaking in the US about just how many people die from medical mistakes. Nobody is proposing outlawing doctors, because even if they blooper now and again, they regularly save lives. If people somehow became brainwashed into thinking that doctors are useless and then they see the death counts, there'd be a serious move to ban them.

This is why all you knife guys who talk about "but they're just taking away our tools, they're not weapons" are taking us down a path towards total cutlery bans.

Ponder this well.

Jim
 
Hello,

Yea i understand now,,here just today i went to Get my .22 marlin out of the Gunsmithy shop and when i had to do the Paper work through the NICS system it came back i was Denied,,,,,,and i dont even have a Disqualifying Reason to not be allowed
to own Firearms,,,,,and now i have to write them and jump through there hoops to get my own Rifle back ,,,, IGNORANT!!!!!< IGNORANT!!!!!! IGNORANT!!!!!!! i mean i have 4 honorable discharges from the military,

held a Federal Firearms licence,,,ect...ect..
i think its just a way for our Lovely USA government to Screw with Law obiding Citizens. I called them up and demanded my Righs back that the Terminated for no Reason,and also informed them that if it didnt happpen Expediantly that i was going to File Suit against the United States Government,,,this is just Ignorant....

ok i`ll shut up now,,,cause im Ticked off,,
sorry for Ranting!!

Allen Blade
 
Fighting down the bile that rises in my throat, I am forced merely to acknowledge yet again that we are traveling inexorably towards a globally homogenous controlled society.

Thus kicking and screaming shall we be dragged into the 21st century, whether we like it or not.

Happy New Year.

Razor

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AKTI #A000845
And tomorrow when you wake up it will be worse.

 
Allen, you wanna REALLY get steamed?

Ya know all that registration crap and other paperwork we have to do else face criminal charges? If a REAL criminal with a felony record doesn't do any of that stuff, he CANNOT BE BUSTED FOR THE PAPERWORK ERRORS.

Care to guess why?

Because by filling out that paperwork, he would be incriminating himself and under the 5th Amendment, they can't make you do that!

COOL, no?

And no, I'm not kidding. Yes, they can still nail a crook for illegal gun possession but not the paperwork stuff...and that includes scoring guns through systems other than NICS.

Jim
 
Hello,

Yea that is Ignorant also Jim, I cant belive that people stand around and let this stuff happen to there Rights,,,and if you say anything the Sheeple look at you like your a Communist or somthing.

I mean in my case , i dont have a record or anything Disqualifying me from having Guns, But since they screwed up ,,no i have to prove that i can legally have guns,,,,,just doesnt seem right to me.

And im sure its going to get worse for people other than yself,,i mean it was just proven to me that the NICS system can mess up and all they say is " well send us a Reply to your denial and we will look into it."

Sounds like just an easy way for them to Try to make you frustrated so hopefully you will change your mind about getting a firearm.

But then Again ,,Its completely alright for the President to LIE under oath and make up excuses to why its ok ..

I think our great<sic> Government is Planning a Rude awakening for all of us..

Why dont the citizens of the Countrys with Laws like these stand up and say NO we arent going to Follow such Ignorant laws....i mean what can they do,lock up everyone!!

I dont know what to think anymore about Individual freedoms,,i think they are quickly becomming Extinct.


Thanks for listening,

Allen Blade

PS...and i think they are going to try and do the same thing with Knives Too.

 
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