Definition of an old khukuri

[golok]

When people say "that's an old khukuri", what criteria do they use?

I have a couple of "old" khukuris. I reckon they may be about 40 to 50 years old. Would that be considered old?

Old khukuris may not necessarily be good khukuris. Basically, they are just old. If they are the creations of past masters, their condition and design plus other factors would bear that out.

Otherwise, how does one go about evalualting an old khukuri?

 

[not2sharp]

I start by looking to see whether it is one of the many standard military patterns issued under India, Nepal, or the British. Very few are marked, many markings are fake, but, most authentic ones do look and feel like arsenal pieces.

Beyond that you look at the age of the materials, the condition, and the quality of workmanship. It is pretty easy to distinguish a good piece from tourist trash. The hard part is that you are often trying to pick up the details from lousy low resolution photos.

n2s

 

[Bill Martino]

Good expert advice.

 

[Daniel Koster]

In America, old is 50 years or more. In Europe or China, it's 300+.

The problem I've found with khukuris is the source information is very unreliable. So, guesswork has to come to play and many a bad knife has been billed as an "Antique".

In placing a value on a dated piece, there are two factors to look for: Aging & Wear

Aging is typically oxidation, found on the blade, sheath and handle. It turns old things darker, sometimes black. Not to be confused with surface rust.

Wear is signs of usage and sharpening. This usually easy to determine. However, it does not easily add or subtract value for every piece.

If there's one mistake I've seen many collectors make, it's failure to provide documentation of any kind. Even if you're the one making the documentation, some is better than none.

Every item has a story and it's the story that sells, not the materials.

Imagine the difference between a common Roman coin found on the street, and the same coin found buried in an emperor's tomb. Same value?

 

[not2sharp]

Every item has a story and it's the story that sells, not the materials.

Buy the item; not the story. There are probably 100 times as many confederate bowie knives on the market now then there ever were during the war between the states. The same goes for military khukuries, there are enough of them in circulation to have equipped every army that has ever been.

The only stories that are worth listening to are those that can be independently verified. Even then there is a risk of further revelations at any point.

In a corner of my collection I have a nice minty WWII OSS machete (Collins/Cruver), and a very clean UDT Kabar knife. Both knives have been documented dozens of times; they appear in Cole's reference work, as well as in Bernard Levine's Knife Guide, and in numerous other publications spanning several decades. According to information obtained under the Freedom of Information act, the machete is actually a failed prototype run that was tested and rejected by the Army Airforce in 1943 (project No.[M4]82). The Kabar knife was actually a post WWII civilian product manufactured by a small outfit from surplus war materials (see Rumors and Urban Legends, Frank Trzaska, Knife World March 2002). So much for the Glamorous OSS and UDT links. BTW, there is an OSS machete for sale on EBAY at this moment.

n2s

PS. The revelations didn't really bother me. I paid for the knives and added not a single cent for the story. So I lost nothing when the story changed.

 

[Daniel Koster]

Originally posted by not2sharp
Buy the item; not the story. There are probably 100 times as many confederate bowie knives on the market now then there ever were during the war between the states. The same goes for military khukuries, there are enough of them in circulation to have equipped every army that has ever been.

I agree with N2S here. Don't buy into a story or history. Do your homework first (if you can ) before you buy so you know what you're looking for. You're bound to make many mistakes = so learn from them too.

However, I don't agree that you should pay for just the material. Knives are not just steel. Accept the fact that you're taking a risk, and have fun and learn. Isn't the ride much more fun than just watching? (especially if it's bumpy )

The greatest meter for measuring value is the desire of the seller to retain the item.

 

[not2sharp]

However, I don't agree that you should pay for just the material. Knives are not just steel.

I agree completely. When I said I would not pay for the story, I did not mean, nor say, that I would price the item strickly on material. The item is what it is and some are just more desirable.

Which brings us to another point. Certificates of Authenticity are universally worthless, unless they are backed by a solid enforceable insurance policy. If you were to go out and buy some of the Crown Jewels, you would certainly hire and use a number of reputable experts to verify the authenticity of the items. You would pay a significant fee for that service, and in exchange you would get their certification and some kind of enforceable guarantee based on that evaluation. This kind of stuff rarely happens with knives (unless you are buying the sword Napoleon wore at Waterloo), so if someone is offering a certificate of authenticity, that is usually a good time to RUN.

n2s

 

[Daniel Koster]

Originally posted by not2sharp
...so if someone is offering a certificate of authenticity, that is usually a good time to RUN.

Bill Marsh has a good collection of eBay auctions of this flavor...

It's so funny to see someone advertise a blatantly obvious POS as "authentic". But what's even more funny is to see the line formed by poor chaps willing to lay money down for it...

 

[Hibuke]

Originally posted by not2sharp


Which brings us to another point. Certificates of Authenticity are universally worthless, unless they are backed by a solid enforceable insurance policy. If you were to go out and buy some of the Crown Jewels, you would certainly hire and use a number of reputable experts to verify the authenticity of the items. You would pay a significant fee for that service, and in exchange you would get their certification and some kind of enforceable guarantee based on that evaluation. This kind of stuff rarely happens with knives (unless you are buying the sword Napoleon wore at Waterloo), so if someone is offering a certificate of authenticity, that is usually a good time to RUN.

n2s

Yeah, I tend to agree with you on that one, especially, where my field of interest is collecting antique Nihon-To...

The dealers I see here in the Merry Land of OZ are incredibly meticulous with every detail, whether it is to take the time to do a rubbing of the signature on the tang, etc...

 

[Bill Martino]

The old buyer beware is very good advice along with if it looks too good to be true......

 

[John Powell]

Trying to find any reliable information on "old" kukris is truly impossible. Occasionally a kothimora will be named and that can be researched. Sometimes a kami will sign a blade with his regiment and that can be researched. Even early soldier's numbers on a blade can be researched sometimes. If you are lucky you will get a kukri directly from the veteran who bought it directly from a Gurkha. Or it will come from an estate of a family that had a history of Gurkha Officers going way back, but rare. As to village kukris, forget it. Age is determined by many of the correct things mentioned previously, but you have to know what to look for.

That is the problem I face while trying to write my book. Authenticity and being able to show a picture so a collector can compare it and at least have a rough idea of what he has.

As for the word "old" I consider WW II and older "old", but that doesn't give any less credibility to a named kothimora from 1958 or a very common military kukri that has the actual provenance of being used/blooded in Borneo or Malaysia.

Caveat emptor

 

[not2sharp]

John,

Since you seem to be doing some of the ground breaking work on these knives, have you worked up a practical classification scheme? Worse comes to worse you could just put them together according to some arbitary physical attribute. Kind of like Paul Kiesling's approach in his respected study of bayonets.

n2s

 

[John Powell]

N2,
when you come down to it there are 3 "types" of kukris:
village, kothimoras and military pieces.

They of course get broken down even further and then of course you start talking blade detail, attribution, use, etc. I was going to finish up talking about newly made pieces and who is producing them, but have decided to avoid that snakepit...there will plenty to talk about and look at. I want this book to contain lots of pictures for the average collector to compare what he has against what I'm showing and describing.

 

[Terr]

"OLD" is anything older than me.

 

[not2sharp]

I want this book to contain lots of pictures for the average collector to compare what he has against what I'm showing and describing.

It sounds like you are headed in the right direction. Anything that improves the dialog would be greatly appreciated.

n2s

 

[Bill Martino]

John has an almost impossible task to deal with and he gets my admiration and sympathy both for just trying. If he every gets this book completed I'll add amazement to my list.