definition of "blade length"

C

crowleader

Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
2
I'd like to know how blade length in a folding knife is defined. The knife in question is a Microtech Minisocom which was confiscated for being "over 3".

The cutting surface does not exceed 3" from tip to end of sharpening, yes Microtech claims a length of 3.19" which seems to be from point to the handle housing.

Is there any literature I can use to actually define this?
 
Howdy Crowleader, and welcome to the forums!

There's really no set way to measure blade length. Statutes usually don't define how blade length should be measured, so case law helps determine that to some degree. You'd have to look at cases in your state to get an idea of how it might be measured in a court.

Sometimes the blade is measured from the point to the pivot joint in folders and sometimes the blade length is just the edge. Manufaturers usually measure blade length from the point to the place where the blade enter the handle.

If you want to argue that the blade length is just the edge length, you can use dictionary definitions of the term "blade". Many dictionaries define "blade" as "the cutting part of an instrument". Since only the edge cuts, the blade length can only be the edge length if these definitions are valid. www.onelook.com searches many dictionaries at once for a defintion. You could print out applicable definitions and use them as references.
 
I just read the IL laws, and you might be in some trouble. "at least 3 inches" is the wording used, and it's classified in the same category as daggers, autos, etc. Jeez, I though NJ was bad.

Dictionary definitions aside, the law usually measures blade length as the max possible stabbing depth, which would be from tip to hilt (handle).
 
It's probably true that the law usually measures blade length from the point to the handle, but you just never know. I've seen court cases where it was measured in a couple of different ways.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any cases in IL that talk about blade length. One example though of a court case where the blade length was determined to just be the edge length is In re Rosalio S. (1995) 35 Cal.App.4th 775, 778. The CA law at issue there is very similar to the IL law at issue here, and you could use the same arguments that were used successfully in Rosalio S.

(I just tried to cut and paste the case here, but no dice; it's too long. You can see it at www.findlaw.com though.)
 
If you don't mind me asking, what were the circumstances that caused the knife to be confiscated? Were any charges filed?
 
As a passenger I had to exit a car during a traffic stop because of paperwork the driver did not have at the time.

I was asked the typical "have you any weapons" question and I replied I had a pocketknife. They opened it and said it was too long and it suddenly vanished. I asked for it back and was told if could have it back, but they would take it away again and charge me. I was told 3" was legal and I always though the minisocom was around 3.5" I did not argue as that would have only irritated them and really prove nothing at all. I was let go and nothing else happened.

I then asked several police what "legal" size was and got answers of 3" and even 3.5". I measured another minisocom I have and the sharpened part is 3" depending on how you measure and what you are trying to prove. It can be exactly 3" and upto 3.3".

I contacted the officer that took it away and explained that as far as I could tell it was of legal size. They said they would measure it. I called back a few days later and was told I could have it back. I asked when picking it up how they measure a knife. I was told they tend to go by "point of the tip to the handle" and do not look at the sharpened edge as people use non-sharpened items as knives.

So basically, it seems to depend as I was told here on the situation and which way they want things to go. I'm sure if I was belligerent, I'd have been charged with something, or my knife might have been "lost". I was resonable and it was given back with no problems.

While an excellent knife, the Microtech Minisocom is in my opinion a really questionable item where it comes to coming up with 3". I had a much easier time coming up with 3.2" and 3.3" than 3.0" when measuring it in several ways.

Thanks to everybody for answers to my original post.
 
Originally posted by RH
Dictionary definitions aside, the law usually measures blade length as the max possible stabbing depth, which would be from tip to hilt (handle).
Click to expand...

Gee, I'd be in real trouble if I was carrying one of my repro "CIA lapel daggers" (with no discernable hilt). :rolleyes:
 
Take a rules, slide it along the blade until it contacts the scales/hilt/etc. Thats what the LEOs will measure.

There are knives out there that this won't work for, obviosly. Neck knives sans scales come to mind. What to do? Carry a neck knife that is obviously sub-legal limit. (I recommend a good half an inch buffer.)
 
I was asked the typical "have you any weapons" question and I replied I had a pocketknife.
Click to expand...

The correct answer was "No". . . Unless you are carrying some kind of super-ninja-killem-dead-no-other-useful-purpose blade of death, the knife in your pocket is a "tool" not a "weapon". If they ask you specifically if you have a knife, I would fall back on this blurb from http://www.homestead.com/njccw/files/Whattodoifthepolicestopyou.htm When it says "gun" think "knife".

What to do if the police stop you.

First, remain silent. You are only required to give your name, address, & drivers license (only if driving) to the police. Do not volunteer information or answer any questions. Mr. Nappen's advice when asked if you have guns in the car is to reply by saying, "Why are you asking me that question?" You see the police can only search if there is something in plain sight or if they have probable cause. If there is nothing in plain sight & you refuse to answer any question, the police will lack the cause to search you or your car. The only way of giving police probable cause is to answer their questions, which are designed to trap you. Do not consent to a search! As Mr. Nappen puts it, "Men & women died for our rights, the least I can do is to exercise my rights." Second, ask for your attorney. You have a right to have an attorney present during any questioning. By asking for your attorney, you may not be interrogated. Third, do not consent to giving up your rights. Do not consent to a search without a warrant or sign statements without an attorney's advice. A right given up is a right lost. If the police stop you; do not resist physically, give your name & address only (license if driving), you do not have to answer questions or consent to a search without a warrant. If arrested say, "I want my attorney." Do not be tricked, threatened, or persuaded into giving up you rights.

Without a warrant or probable cause, evidence against you will most likely be thrown out in a criminal court case. For the many who are wrongly arrested for not consenting to police searches, Mr.Nappen will sue the police because they have violated your civil rights. Police departments who wish to settle civil rights cases need to pay up $3,000 per hour that you were wrongly in jail or risk a federal suit $! (10/10/00)
Click to expand...

Of course, I would probably have done the same thing you did. :) We are only human. The reflex to spill your guts to the nice (intimidating?) policeman can be difficult to overcome, especially for us law-abiding citizens who think of the police as the good guys (BTW they usually ARE the good guys) and who could hardly imagine being charged with a misdemenor or felony for possessing an object that is half an inch too long or too short.

-Latebound
 
Be very careful in following the advise just given. "Generic" what to do blanket legal advise has landed good people in hot water in the past, and inevitably will in the future. It lands criminals in jail constantly.

Be especially careful of situations that cause you to split legal hairs between whether or not a knife is a tool, a weapon, or both.
 
I'm not sure if I've been misunderstood. In case I have, let me clarify. In case I haven't, please tell me why. . . I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. :D

Rule #1: When in doubt, keep your mouth shut.
Rule #2: NEVER lie to a LEO.
Rule #3: Don't give up your rights or do anything to give LE probable cause.

The point I was trying to make is that just because it is a knife, that doesn't automatically make it a weapon. I carry a locking folder daily. I have never used it as a weapon, and can only imagine using it as a weapon in an extremely desperate kind of situation. I don't think of my fountain pens as weapons, but in an equally desperate kind of situation, they could also be used as weapons.

If you honestly think of your knife as a weapon, then feel free to fall back on Rule #1. Whatever way you look at it, crowleader's reply was probably not the ideal way to handle the situation. He was very lucky to have such a happy ending. Again, I don't want to be critical of crowleader. In the heat of the moment, it is easy to make mistakes. I'm sure if he had it to do over again, he would handle the situation differently. ;)

-Latebound
 
1. That's fine. Most honest citizens will go much further. Think of Condit.

2. I concur.

3. Careful with legal interpretations. LEOs do not need probable cause to frisk someone for weapons. (Basically...) If the officer can articulate a concern for personal safety, there is a green light to frisk, which of course, may or may not produce probable cause. "What's that in you pocket?" "I thought you didn'y have any weapons." See below...

"The point I was trying to make is that just because it is a knife, that doesn't automatically make it a weapon."

A knife is not per se a weapon. But... Just about every reasonable person (the standard you'll have to argue in court) in the world knows that when a LEO asks "do you have any weapons on you" that knives are lumped in the querry. Answering "no" may be seen as dishonest and/or evasive, and will be treated as such by many LEOs, DAs, judges, not to mention the typical citizens who may be on your jury. (I'll tell you right now that it will be more often than not.)

Best of luck in choosing the prudent course of action should you ever face a situation where a LEO decides to ask.
 
Hmmm. . . I can see what you are saying about a "reasonable person". It especially makes sense when we realize that a large percentage of these "reasonable people" believe that Elvis is still alive and making a good living in Las Vegas impersonating himself. :D Relying on the reasonableness of people might not be the best thing to do.

I suppose a large part of convincing a jury comes down to how "tactical/scary" looking your knife is.

Is there a situation that you would consider answering "Yes" to the officer? I can't think of one, and it seems to me that essentially telling the officer that your pocket knife is a weapon would be a very silly thing to do. Perhaps, "No, sir, but I do have a pocket knife." Or, even better, just refer to Rule #1 and keep your mouth shut.

-Latebound
 
There are all sorts of odd folks out there, agreed. However, the law looks at reasonableness, as defined by most people. That's how it goes. Reasonableness it a good thing for knife carriers, imo. Most people, LEOs included, have no qualms with Multitools, pocket knives, etc.

The "look" of your knife may indeed affect how a LEO, DA, judge, or jury member perceives it. I think this is silly and shouldn't be the case, but once again that is how it goes.

In every instance that I can imagine where a LEO would inquire as to if I possess anything that LEO might perceive to be a weapon I answer truthfully. I never go anywhere without a knife therefore my answer is always "yes." The important thing to remember is that LEO are asking out of concern for theor own safety. Understandable. This may occur any time an officer is in close proximity to someone they feel uncomfortable with. It may be a matter of routine. Either way, if they are concerned, for whatever reason, truthful, direct, honest answers are what is called for. What is not called for is mincing words, splitting legal hairs, or half-truths. By the way, what reaction do you expect when you answer with silence? A positive one? Think again.

"No, sir, but I do have a pocket knife" is an affirmaive answer. If you feel better answering that way, fine. Just understand that to the LEO you are answering "yes." (I have answered this way in the past, for the record.)
 
My concern with answering "Yes" to the "Do you have any weapons" question is that it means you are agreeing that the knife is a weapon. This doesn't seem like the best thing to do. . . I'm kind of leaning toward "No, sir, but I do have a pocket knife" (or a variation) as my default reply. Of course, this is assuming that the officer is asking out of a concern for there own safety. If I'm stopped randomly on a street corner and asked this question, my replies would be "Why do you ask", "Am I under arrest" (then walk away), and "I want my lawyer". I have no problem cooperating if an officer really needs to know the answer, but I'm not going to surrender my rights for no good reason. This country was built on freedom. We are not a police-state.

"No, sir, but I do have a pocket knife" is an affirmaive answer. If you feel better answering that way, fine. Just understand that to the LEO you are answering "yes."
Click to expand...

This is probably true in most cases. However, if the LEO wants to nail you by getting you to admit that the knife is a *weapon*, then I think there is a huge difference between the two answers. I guess what I am getting at is that the intent of the person with the knife may make a difference. I could imagine a person with a perfectly legal knife being charged for "possession of a deadly weapon" or some such crime. After all, "he said it was a weapon"!

I guess I just wouldn't be so quick to provide answers that may be used to harrass me (like seems to have happened to crowleader). Just because you're a good law-abiding citizen, doesn't mean they wouldn't mind putting you through the wringer a few times.

-Latebound
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top