Delica/Endura..."unofficial MBC rated"?

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Daywalker

Joined
Jan 29, 2004
Messages
1,737
Aloha ALL!

This might sound stupid, but I have been training with the Delica and Endura for YEARS now. Since the days of Mr. Erik REMMEN, and I had noticed last year in a gun mag I think, that the Sig Sauer Academy were using Enduras in some training pictures accompanying the article on their "system" of edged weapon training.

Anyway, there are Endura/Delica trainers right? So are these lockbacks "stronger" than let's say, a Salt or Claypso Jr. lock spring? Visually and tension-wise, they look and feel the same to me...are they "unofficially MBC rated?"

I have only had the "shear" pleasure of my SS PE Police model suffer lock failure during an impromptu cardbaord stack thrust test. I got midway of the stack, then the feeling of my index sliding on the edge of my closing Police! Ugh. I'm just glad that it wasn't my SE version...no more trigger finger for me! The ONLY other models that have come close to lock failure were my Walker FRN, and Cricket FRN (during MBC "stuff")...other than that, nothing. Not even my Ladybug! ;)

Anyway, I was just curious...thoughts anybody?

God bless!
 
If my brain works right at 5am and the first cup of coffee...

They used the c10/11 line in the MBC set for convenience sake. Being top sellers before MBC came around(dunno about after), there are countless ones out there. Think about it... how many of us have *at least* 1 of the c10/11 line if not more?

So by using a knife we all know and love, teaching defense with a familiar knife is easier than doing muscle memory from scratch for a new knife.

Now to have someone who's a little more awake come and confirm my random thoughts.
 
Aloha my friend!

Dude, you up early!

I know almost EVERYONE has one version or another, I was just curious on the lock rating, or as you said, it is just for "convenience sake". All I know is NONE of these EVER failed on me lockwise or other...

Good morning buddy! Have a great God given day!
 
I work at 0600hrs... up at 0430, leave at 0530, home at 1430-1500ish...

Yesterday I woke up at 0320 and finally got out of bed at 0415.
 
IIRC Sal mentioned on the forums many moons ago, that the C10/C11 drones were provided because many people are training and using them for MBC. Even though the models do not meet the MBC standards, the reality was and is that many people use them, so it's better to give them the best possible trianing tools. Sort of a market demand. Plus, I think the C10/C11 drones can be useful as trainers for other spydies that don't have dedicated trianers. They cover a wide range of tip-up spydies that way.


Wouter
 
Aloha Wouter!

Makes sense to me! I wonder now, WHAT makes a knife "MBC rated"? Hmmmmm...

God bless!
 
IIRC the MBC lock rating is 200 lbs per blade inch(?)

I remember sal saying that some of their non MBC knives beat competitors tactical offerings, falling into the 'Heavy Duty', range (can't remember if he gave a figur, but it might have been 150 lbs per blade inch). One of these knives was the calypso jr ltwt, which surprised me. I'm pretty sure the delica would have been in there, too. Not sure about Endura as, all other things being equal it would be rated lower than the delica due to the longer blade, but the lock could be built stronger.

SO these, and probably many other Spydercos, are suitable for SD, depending on how you use them. You always have to work within the limitations of your self and your equipment. If you're likely to be able to exert 150 lbs of load at the tip of the blade (in the closing direction) then although an MBC rating would be better, you probably have a good case for carrying a fixed blade. Otherwise, Delicas and calypsos are a good choice.
 
Aloha littleclaw! Thanks for the technical aspect.

Lifter4him, I asked the same awhile back on the Spyder Forum...I THINK he's still lurking about, but I dunno if he's still "holding class!" Also, wasn't he an influence on the reversible clip thing?

Mahalo and God bless!
 
Aloha Daywalker!

No problem.

Could you tell me what "Mahalo" means, please?! I've heard it a lot in a couple of films I've watched lately, and I guess it means something like "cheers," "peace" or "health" - definitely something good, but I'd like to know for sure.

Cheers :cool:

Dom
 
I have about 20 to 30 spydies, all the endura and delicas in SS, FRN, serrated, plain, etc.

The old spydie that failed on me was an old G-10 PE Standard with the single steel liner. The locking bar swelled up and cracked, and I got a free replacement for it.

My belief is that for the lockbacks(or frontlocks), the old ones in ATS-55 or before, don't have such a good mating between the blade back and lockbar as the newer ones(VG-10).

I don't feel that I have a problem with the new ones, or any made in the last few years.

I generally try not to do too much stabbing with the lockbacks. I believe that the nature of a lockback does not make it the strongest possible design for stabbing. That said, the chinook is supposed to be really strong, but I don't have one ,so I can't comment.

For stabbing stress, I like the compression lock, like in the Gunting. Also the BM AFCK Axis-lock. They say the lil'Temp is really strong, but again, I don't have one, so I can't comment. Suffice to say, that when Spydie builds a knife fof MBC, I trust them until I see otherwise.

Most of the time I carry the AFCKs(axis-lock) for emergencies and the spydies for actual cutting work.

I generally would not try to stabbing with a folding knife, no matter how strong.
 
My apologies:

Little claw said:
... falling into the 'Heavy Duty', range (can't remember if he gave a figur, but it might have been 150 lbs per blade inch).
Click to expand...

In case anyone reads this figure without clicking through to the Spyderco forum thread, sal said that 'heavy duty' was classed as 100+ lbs per blade inch, not 150 as I suggested in my earlier post.
 
I have an older (pre-98) endura that I use for all kind of bad things. This month, I used it to cut a pond liner into pieces so I could continue digging it out of the ground. I actually use it for many things like this. The point is, although I believe the compression lock is the best lock ever (the way they are on the Gunting), much too much is being made of "MBC" lock strength. I feel that endura/delica line has proven itself in many instances, and it is one of the few knives I would trust for SD, probably the only one at that price level (among folders). It still locks up for me, and I would replace it with another Endura in a heartbeat if it somehow died. Oh, well-Joe
 
Hi Daywalker.
There's an interesting topic. I think the MBC rated thing is somehow misunderstood. Take the Chinook or the Gunting. They need a strong lock, because they are meant to be used with the back of the blade as well as with the edge.
OTOH, take a Civilian or a Spyderhawk. Their particular blade shape makes them unapropriate for certain maneuvers with the back of the blade. So, IMO, a stronger lock won't add much to their functionality.
I dare to say this thing applies to the Delica / Endura as well. I admit that you can - technically - block with the back of your Endura, or try a slashing / stabbing motion with the spine forward. If you block and the hit is strong enough, it is most likely that it will throw away the knife from your hand or break the blade before the lock will fail.
Considering the blade shape and the lock strength, I think that a heavy duty lock is enough.
 
dialex said:
... So, IMO, a stronger lock won't add much to their functionality.
Click to expand...

IMHO, while you may be correct in theory, in practice fighting is dynamic and unpredictable and all sorts of stuff can happen.

dialex said:
... If you block and the hit is strong enough, it is most likely that it will throw away the knife from your hand or break the blade before the lock will fail.
Click to expand...

The first part is possible, even likely, but depending on how you are holding the knife, a strong force applied near the tip will either move the pivot out of your hand (probably losing your grip on the knife) using the butt as the fulcrum, or the pivot will act as the fulcrum and the butt will move into your palm concentrating the force in the pivot, possibly causing it to fail. I'd be surprised if the blade broke, though.

It is possible to hold onto a 3" blade with 100lbs applied to the tip (300inlbs of torque), I just fixed a 7.5kg weight (16.5lb) to the end of a 24" stick. Not counting the 4" that I was holding onto (or the weight of the stick) thats 16.6lb x 20in = 330 inlbs. Under a gently applied load I was not able to lift it (palm down), but was able to hold it, and I am pretty average in build/strength. There are guys I train with that I'm sure could lift it. 300 inlbs is a lot of force, though, and I'd be more than happy with a delica or endura.

dialex said:
... Considering the blade shape and the lock strength, I think that a heavy duty lock is enough.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree, with the qualifications above. You have to examine how you train, as well. the beauty of the delica/endura is that you can get an analogous trainer and see how they hold up under dynamic conditions.
 
lifter4Him said:
Whatever happened to Erik Remmen?
Click to expand...


According to what I'm about to quote from TK May 1999 issue,page 21,last pharagraph of an article by John Larsen,"Erik Remmen has been on a sabbatical from instructing to pursue other interests.He has now teamed up with Marty Hayes of Firearms Academy of Seattle..."

Ha,and my Wife wants to know why I keep that 3ft high stack of old magazines in the corner.tom. :D
 
Thanks Little Claw for the comments. It is indeed most unlikely to break a blade during a knifefight (not that this couldn't happen, under certain circumstances, of course). If I think well, I've only seen broken knives in movies - but there's also where I've seen knife fights ;)
 
Aloha man!

Sorry for the late reply...Mahalo means, "Thank you." Get this though, "Aloha" means BOTH Thank you AND Greetings...LOL! :confused:

Great points of view Alex and Little Claw! 'Specially the fact that in a SD situation, ANYTHING can happen...spooky sometimes...

Well, regardless of the lock rating on the Endura/Delica, I have absolute confidence in them! ;)

God bless you guys and "mahalo"!
 
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