Design Components – Knowing when to STOP?

[Kevin Jones]

When a collector or maker designs a knife they usually want it to be a piece that is memorable or that really has that WOW factor. An example of WOW! factor would be Riad’s new Hancock Hunter. So how do you know in regard to design elements when TO STOP?

By design components I’m referring to the “bells and whistles” so to speak. For example; lavish damascus patterns, exotic handle materials, spanish notches, filework, lavish engraving, the neat little butterfly choil thing some ABS MS do, silver or gold inlay/wire inlay, stone inlay, bluing etc.

This topic comes to mind for two reasons. One, the Bowie Momo recently posted has a lot “going on”.
However, as I stated in my post it works for me.

And second, I will be posting a Bowie soon (after it returns from photography) that I took very close IMO to this “STOP” design line. I did have just this purpose in mind for the design of this piece however in that it’s by a maker that I see as one of the most multi-talented of all makers. So I wanted to create a canvas to showcase as much of this talent on one piece without going too far over this faint line.

So my purpose for this thread is to get opinions form collectors and makers as to their views regarding not enough or too much. Most seasoned collectors on this forum design knives to be made by their favorite makers and of course makers struggle with this on a daily basics as they attempt to create pieces that jump off the website page and say “Buy ME” but not create a “Gaudy” or un-tasteful pieces .

I believe this thread will explore the entire spectrum for this topic as some here consider a knife with more than a wood handle, forged blade and plain guard has surpassed the line and others like me for example who go overboard at times with the embellishments.

 

[ptgdvc]

Every option that is added to the knife increases the cost of the knife, but does not necessarily increase its perceived value and desirability. The added cost also reduces the number of potential buyers of the knife in the secondary market. It is a fine line to walk. Also, the particular maker affects what would be considered a reasonable amount of embellishment. As an example, a knife by Steve Dunn, MS without engraving would look naked. A knife by Russ Andrews, JS with engraving, would be seem completely out of place.

If you are buying the knife purely as an indulgence, with no concerns about resale, whatever floats you boat is fine with me.

P

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Sometimes adding one design element is one design element too many. On other knives the addition of a carved handle with wire inlay and some jewels, a pattern welded blade, engraving and a fancy carved guard and buttcap look great.

There are times when adding a blued guard to an otherwise plain design looks out of place, and other times where it looks great.

To me it is in matching the embellishments to the overall design of the knife. Too much or not enough embellishment is something that is different for different knives. Also, different people will have differing opinions as to what is too much. Consider left-brained and right-brained thinking.

 

[SharpByCoop]

AS in many things in life, less is not as easy as one thinks. I remember the story of a speaker who was asked:

"How much will you charge for a two-hour speech?"
$500 was the answer.
"Just a little out of range. How much for a 30-min speech covering the same topic?"
$1500 to cover everything in less words.

Our sentences are more readable when we punctuate. Our speech is legible when there is a short, almost imperceptible pause of silence to distinguish and separate the words.

It's human nature to want to jam everything in the most compressed space. Witness my busy photos. Guilty as charged. But there are times when less is more.

All great artists take years to learn what NOT to include.

That said, some like it very rich. C'est la Vie!

Coop

 

[cloozoe]

Simple blade, guard, ferrule and handle of appropriate wood or stag, harmoniously shaped/perfectly balanced/flawlessly executed: Always in good taste and desirable.

Add a butt cap: Sure, why not.

Engraving on guard, ferrule, butt cap: Suits me fine if done well and tastefully. Not into pictures of wild life or recumbent nudes (at least not on a knife)

Fancier handle materials: Sometimes - case by case basis.

Damascus: Dislike more examples than I like, but occasionally I see an example I like a lot.

Beyond that (including arty shapes, jewels, stone, artificial materials, mokume, brass, bronze, etc.): Not my cup of joe - the Emerson, Lake and Palmer of knives and I'm a Chuck Berry man. Whether it's ever to be used or not, a knife that ceases to be first and foremost a knife holds no interest for me. If I want more complex art, I'll buy a painting or a sculpture.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Every option that is added to the knife increases the cost of the knife, but does not necessarily increase its perceived value and desirability. The added cost also reduces the number of potential buyers of the knife in the secondary market. It is a fine line to walk. Also, the particular maker affects what would be considered a reasonable amount of embellishment. As an example, a knife by Steve Dunn, MS without engraving would look naked. A knife by Russ Andrews, JS with engraving, would be seem completely out of place.

If you are buying the knife purely as an indulgence, with no concerns about resale, whatever floats you boat is fine with me.

P

Good point Peter, as the embellishments definitely add to cost and a maker could easily embellish the piece right out of his clientele’s price range, but I was mainly considering aesthetics. Say when a maker wonders if file working the spine will add or subtract from the overall piece or when to stop engraving.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Simple blade, guard, ferrule and handle of appropriate wood or stag, harmoniously shaped/perfectly balanced/flawlessly executed: Always in good taste and desirable.

Add a butt cap: Sure, why not.

Engraving on guard, ferrule, butt cap: Suits me fine if done well and tastefully. Not into pictures of wild life or recumbent nudes (at least not on a knife)

Fancier handle materials: Sometimes - case by case basis.

Damascus: Dislike more examples than I like, but occasionally I see an example I like a lot.

Beyond that (including arty shapes, jewels, stone, artificial materials, mokume, brass, bronze, etc.): Not my cup of joe - the Emerson, Lake and Palmer of knives and I'm a Chuck Berry man. Whether it's ever to be used or not, a knife that ceases to be first and foremost a knife holds no interest for me. If I want more complex art, I'll buy a painting or a sculpture.

I think most here would consider custom knives art. I like to think of my knives as " Functional Art". I do agree a knife needs to appear to be a knife. To your point, in David Darom's book "Custom Fixed-Blade Knives" some pieces IMO approach not being knives anymore, however on the other hand most don't pay $500 to thousands for a knife just because it cuts.

 

[cloozoe]

Just throwing out my personal likes/dislikes - thought that was what you were looking for. Obviously not everyone's take, nor was I suggesting it should be. But your disdainful, put-the-new-guy-in-his-place read on me was correct; I don't consider high end knives "Art" with a capital A, but rather - at their best - superb examples of the kind of craft of which very few are capable, and which is high achievement enough both aesthetically and functionally. And which, of course, transcends their ability to merely cut. But when they attempt to be a Mozart, a Melville or a Vermeer, they over-reach and lose me.

Semantics, I suppose, as "what is art?" has been debated long before any of us were born and will continue to be debated long after we're all dust.

 

[ptgdvc]

Good point Peter, as the embellishments definitely add to cost and a maker could easily embellish the piece right out of his clientele’s price range, but I was mainly considering aesthetics. Say when a maker wonders if file working the spine will add or subtract from the overall piece or when to stop engraving.

I simply don't know how to answer that question. I think that it can only be answered by the maker's customer on a case by case basis. If we are discussing a spec knife, the free market will provide an answer eventually.

P

 

[Kevin Jones]

Just throwing out my personal likes/dislikes - thought that was what you were looking for. Obviously not everyone's take, nor was I suggesting it should be. But your disdainful, put-the-new-guy-in-his-place read on me was correct; I don't consider high end knives "Art" with a capital A, but rather - at their best - superb examples of the kind of craft of which very few are capable, and which is high achievement enough both aesthetically and functionally. And which, of course, transcends their ability to merely cut. But when they attempt to be a Mozart, a Melville or a Vermeer, they over-reach and lose me.

Semantics, I suppose, as "what is art?" has been debated long before any of us were born and will continue to be debated long after we're all dust.

Actually, considering your membership date I'm the new guy here. Your opinion, likes and dislikes is exactly what I'm looking for. And I was not trying to put the new guy in his place. I actually agreed with you to a point about knives getting too artsy. As anyone here will tell you I'm ALL about helping new collectors. If in fact that's what you are. So welcome, and try not to be too thin skinned because if you think I was disdainful, wait until some others reply to your post. We are all friends here, but very opinionated at times. Anyway check out this collectors site for examples of ART Knives; http://www.sanfranciscoknives.com/

 

[Kevin Jones]

I simply don't know how to answer that question. I think that it can only be answered by the maker's customer on a case by case basis. If we are discussing a spec knife, the free market will provide an answer eventually.

P

I see your point Peter. And I guess I was more looking for dialog rather than expecting an answer to a question.
Jerry, at times gets his collectors involved in helping him determine how far to go with a knife. Especially knives for his Micro Show. He will post a photo on his site or on the Anvil or just ask you for an opinion as to if he should engrave it, or what damascus pattern etc.. I think that's cool. So if he ponders on these things, I'm sure other makers do also.

 

[cloozoe]

Yep - I've visited the sfknives site. Much of it is a bit, uh, baroque for me, but then I've got no interest in high-tech assassin's knives either, so I'm admittedly kind of limited.

 

[RAN]

Hi Kevin
I think this topic does come down to the individuals tastes and working or finding a maker who appeals to those same sensibilities
I tend to throw an idea or pattern at a maker and stand back ..but I do gravitate to makers who appeal to my palate
I also dont like forcing a maker into an area they arent comfortable working in

 

[Don Hanson III]

Great thread Kevin! Making knive for the past 25 years, I have covered the very basic to the highly embellished, and have done ugly to. I have come to the point in my knife making that flow and balance are much more important (to me) than embellishment. When working on Coop's knife, he used the phrase "simple elegance" I like this phrase. A lot of times less is more.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Great thread Kevin! Making knive for the past 25 years, I have covered the very basic to the highly embellished, and have done ugly to. I have come to the point in my knife making that flow and balance are much more important (to me) than embellishment. When working on Coop's knife, he used the phrase "simple elegance" I like this phrase. A lot of times less is more.

Don, I would say you are among the best at pulling off sophisticated designs but knowing just when enough is enough demonstrated by these beauties from your website.

And here utilizing a relic rustic tusk to pull off a a great design.

 

[Joss]

Most knives in my collection are unadorned, largely because I can't afford the other kind (although I have a Fuegen and a Schwartzer goblin folders which are both rather elaborately carved). I have nothing against over the top decoration.

HOWEVER, the more sophisticated a knife gets, the more sensitive I get to flaws. I can forgive basic flaws on basic knives, but my tolerance is much lower for things more sophisticated. I recently saw a Tim Herman folder with color engraving that was simply not succesful. I also dislike wire inlay where gaps appear or where the curves are made of smaller straight sections.

 

[CShepherd]

I really like these kinds of threads, especially when they're kept civil in the responses. As a new knife maker I am always interested in the opinions of those who have been making or collecting for much longer than me.

I'm in the boat with others here in that I don't collect art knives due to a limited budget. I'm not all that atracted to them for that matter. I can look at them and greatly appreciate the work that went into them, just not my thing. That could change if I had a greater budget.

I look for function first, them form that follows and compliments that function. Guess that's why I'm drawn to knives with integral guards, or full tang with a built in guard, etc. I'm the same way with my firearms purchases, I want a user before anything else.

Just what I look for, design, and make.

I do feel that many of the art knives are a bit over the top. With smaller art pieces, such as knives, I feel the artist must simplify their design somewhat or it's easy to just see a mass of design with out any features standing out. Every piece of art needs something prominent to anchor it, in my opinion. I ran a portrait studio for a few years and always recommended to my clients to keep the portraits uncluttered unless they were going for really large photos so that they, the primary subject, would stand out since that was the purpose. With art knives I see the same thing, the fact that it is a knife should be the primary subject with the embelishments complimenting and enhancing that subject matter.

Charles

 

[Kevin Jones]

I really like these kinds of threads, especially when they're kept civil in the responses. As a new knife maker I am always interested in the opinions of those who have been making or collecting for much longer than me.

I'm in the boat with others here in that I don't collect art knives due to a limited budget. I'm not all that atracted to them for that matter. I can look at them and greatly appreciate the work that went into them, just not my thing. That could change if I had a greater budget.

I look for function first, them form that follows and compliments that function. Guess that's why I'm drawn to knives with integral guards, or full tang with a built in guard, etc. I'm the same way with my firearms purchases, I want a user before anything else.

Just what I look for, design, and make.

I do feel that many of the art knives are a bit over the top. With smaller art pieces, such as knives, I feel the artist must simplify their design somewhat or it's easy to just see a mass of design with out any features standing out. Every piece of art needs something prominent to anchor it, in my opinion. I ran a portrait studio for a few years and always recommended to my clients to keep the portraits uncluttered unless they were going for really large photos so that they, the primary subject, would stand out since that was the purpose. With art knives I see the same thing, the fact that it is a knife should be the primary subject with the embelishments complimenting and enhancing that subject matter.

Charles

Well said Charles.