Design "rip-off" how close to count?

Burchtree

Burchtree

KnifeMaker & Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
5,368
A week or two ago, I made a Wharncliffe neck knife. I really like the feel and was proud of my work. A little bit after that, I was cruising through Bladeart and saw that Ed Chavar had some that were almost identical to mine. I was pretty disapointed, as I thought I had made something different, only to find that someone else had already made one. I didn't make it to sell or anything, just for my own use, so I don't feel like I "ripped-off" something. I was going to call it a dog-claw, but now it's dubbed the Chaver-style Wharncliffe. Has this ever happened to any of you? I took pictures of mine and will post them soon, and maybe you guys can tell me if the design is close enough to be considered a "rip-off" or if it's different enough to call my own.
 
Let's face it, knives have been around for a long time. It's pretty hard to innovate a new knife design so practically every knife has been made by someone at sometime or another. Some designs have been made over and over by particular makers and that particular design should be considered that makers "brand" so to speak. Loveless comes to mind immediatley as something we all recognize. But that "brand" generally has a certain continuity of size and shape, particularly, in my mind, the shape of the handle. If your knife was made independenttly of knowledge of the other makers work and you only made the one knife it should have enough minor differences to distinguish it and not have to say it's a "so-and-so" makers style unless it makes you feel better about it. It's pretty obvious when you make a "copy" and most makers will point this out because what they are doing is making an homage to the maker whose work they admire and who influenced them the most. My opinions only.
 
Parallel developement has been going on since the dawn of humanity. There are no knife designs that haven't been done in the past, probably thousands of times, over thousands of years. If you reached that design on your own, with no intent to copy, don't worry about it. If it really bothers you, call Ed Chavar and explain what happened. I'd be willing to bet, he would be pleased, and give you his blessing.
This sort of thing has happened to me twice, once on the design of a fighter, and once on a Mediterranean. I called the original maker in both cases and explained. Both told me to knock myself out, and make all I wanted. The maker of the Mediterranean sent me articles and photo's of great historical value on that blade type. We ended up communicating regularly until his unfortunate death.
You might want to modify the pattern if it really bothers you. That's how most "new" designs come about anyway. Make a drawing, and leave it for a couple of weeks. Keep looking at it on a daily basis. Pretty soon you will change a line here or there because you think it would look better, round off a sharp corner, etc. Next thing you know, you have your own unique pattern, maybe. ;) :eek:
 
I'd say along same lines, that since you didn't knowingly copy it, it most likely isn't exactly the same,a nd the fact you just made one for yourself, that it's fine for now. If it really is close(as we'll know when you get pictures), then I might just talk to the other maker. Tell him wohle story, and just see what he has to say. He may not mind, or if you're lucky, he may even be behind on orders for those, or have decided to stop them completely, and willing even to point other people your way to get them(doubtful, but hey, i tmight happen. :) ) Anyways, for now I'd say there's absolutely no problems. personally I think I've only made one that was almost a copy(knowingly and with the makers permission), and the end product is gonna end up so different from the original that I doubt the maker will care anyways, so I might actually sell it, where I had originally planned it for my own use(When was last time you saw a Rinaldi with bocote handles and brass bolsters? :) )

But yeah, anyways, i'd say you're completely fine for now, as it was for yourself, and can't really judge past that until we see how close it is
 
Michael,
This same thing has just happened to me. I had this style of personal protection/utility type of knife kicking around in my head so I put it to paper then made three prototypes. Several days later I'm surfing the net and lo and behold there is a pic that looked quite a bit like the knives I just made. It's the CRK&T Ryan Plan "B".:(
I was upset and very bummed because I sure don't wanna be accused of ripping off someone else's design.
Then I remembered something I read that in effect said, 'There's only so much you can do with a piece of steel and a handle'. And it's true. Somewhere, at some time, every possible knife design has been tried in human history. Those designs that worked were, and for the most part are, still with us today in one form or another. As the Bible states: "there is nothing new under the sun".
After a week of mulling I'm not too upset anymore. After studying the Plan "B" picture, I see there are enough differences between Steve Ryan's design and my own that there shouldn't be too much finger pointing and accusations of "knock off!". As soon as my wife returns from her hiatus and brings the digicam back, I want to post pics of these blades.


All the best,
Mike U.
 
hell, theres prolly not a maker out there that hasnt done the same thing. especially since the internet became so used.

i say dont worry about it. pretty much any design worth making has been made, and some that weren't ;)
 
I copy classic designs on purpose. I also give credit to the designer on purpose.

Roger

EDIT: At the risk of boring you some more, I was just remembering - My second knife was a copy of a Larry Harley skinner I had seen in a A.G. Russell cataloge. I posted pics of it ( http://riflestocks.tripod.com/pics1.html ) here on this forum and definately gave him credit for its design. Well, never in all my born days did I expect to ever cross his path. As it was only a day or so later who do you think started a thread here? Yep it was he himself. I jumped in and admitted my copy. He came back and told me to email him my address so that he might send me a template!!! So, there you are. I do wish though I would have emailed him my address. Oh well.

Roger
 
The Wharncliff blade has been around for ages and many people offer versions as neck knives.
 
The term "rip off" carries the connotation of "intent to decieve".

Unless there is and intenet to deceive the public there is no rip off in my opinion. There have been knives around for about 1.3 million years if you date from the first chipped stone cutting instruments (National Geographic) so there is no way to avoid reusing design elements that have been used before so don;t sweat it.
 
It seems to me that it is very, very rare that a design of any sort is truly unique. Recent to do about a credit card type knife reminded me of one I had when I was 12 or 13 years-old. I'm 40 now.
I guess we're all ripping off the idea of file working a knife from someone. I wonder who? ;)
 
Only so many ways you can make a knife that actually works... I think its totally possible to have the same original idea as someone else...
Rip-offs are usually pretty clear cut nowadays, cause if you have something different, EVERYONE knows about it, and will point it out...
 
Thanks for the replies, I took pictures of the knife and am getting the film developed. (These forums are going to force me to buy a digital camera.)
 
I was at a sporting goods store, a friend showed me a 'knock off' knife made in China. He purchased it for under $3.00, the "real knife sells wholesale at over $50.00. We got to talking about knock offs, he proceded to describe the history of this particular knife. The design originated in the 1930's in Germany, then was made in the US in the 40's then again in another company and country, then later a couple of others produced knock offs of the same design. The knife he had was a documented 5 generation 'knock off'. The big outfit that was complaining about 'knock off's' now probably doesn't have a clue about the knife's ancestory, still their voice is heard now and some sympathise with them for having their creativity stolen.
He went on to say that if we were to research carefully we would probably find someone who made a similar knife before the 30's.
Enjoy making the knives you want to make, live your dreams and as long as you designed it yourself it is OK.
 
Good story, and good advice Ed. It's probably true more often than we realize. A parallel could be made between knives and music. Both have been around for centuries. There are only so many PLEASANT combinations of notes, yet folks continually write "new" songs. It may be a case of it's been longer than anyone can remember, so it's a new song/knife. The important thing is to not blatantly and intentionally copy someone's current design.
 
RA: I meant to say as long as you designed it the way your vision lead you it is (maybe) better.
Robert Henri, one of my heroes stated that one should view his inspiration (the model)in one room, then walk into another room and draw what impressed him. The artist could walk from room to room as often as he needed to, but by doing the art in another room he would only create that which he cherished, thus his painting would be original no matter what the nature of his model.

If you wish to read, his book is now in paperback by Westview, "The Art Spirit" by Robert Henri. It is a good read and if you like his thoughts, you will be on the way to one who's work is truly unique.

I found all of the thoughts by those who contributed to this thread were excellent.
Good luck
 
But very occasionally someone comes up with something unique and hopefully gets some credit for it.

I am a habitual doodler and have possibly drawn hundreds of thousands of knife drawings. When I do my internet "research" I discover that largely coincidentally, I've drawn up some of the designs that many makers are using as their signature pieces. I also wonder if subliminally, I've had ingrained into me particular pattersn that have been outstanding and I keep coming back to those.

Thankfully, we're all individuals and while it could be easy to make a similar design knife, it is actually extremely difficult to make an identical one. And that applies to some of my own knives too ! Especially when I'm not using moulds, specific templates etc.

However, there are some spectaculr examples of TRUE KNOCK-OFFS. One example is when a low-cost maknufacturer actually goes out to intentionally copy eg.- an Ontario Spec Plus design, Emerson, KaBar, Cold STeel, (Strider has been a recent victim of this) and makes one in an inferior steel / inferior fit and finish and markets it as if it were the original. Some have the audacity to actually mark the knives with the copied logo of the original design ! I believe there would be no such things as collaboration, royalties or liaison at all.

They market the knives at prices that no maker could compete with and the inferior quality gives a poor reputation to all other makers associated with the craft. Those who purchase such knives often have not had the benefit of using a "real" well-crafted knife (factory or custom) and assume that all knives are either that bad or only that good.

Its a bee in my bonnet, this one.

But from your point of view, I think it is not something for you to be concerned about - you have demonstrated integrity and thoughtfullness by actually considering this issue in the first place and THAT is to be admired, my friend.

Cheers. Jason.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top