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- Apr 27, 1999
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Could some of you give particulars of how you do "multiple quenching" of blades? Also how might you augment this using cryo tempering? Does cryo work as well on lower chrome steels as with stainless?
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Details of multiple quench?
- Thread starter Jeff Clark
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- Jun 12, 1999
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as for cryo, i think 5% is the lowest it'll work on, so it should help a-2. it is only needed on high chrome steels.
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- Sep 26, 1999
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Good question Jeff I hope somebody knowes ,I would like to have a pretty double temper line myself.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 1999
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Mulitple Quench 101:
There are a number of steps that can, and do improve the charcteristics I desire in my blades. They are all inclusive, and doing only one without the others will not give optimum results. I will not attempt to convince you that my way is the only one, but will give you the basics that you can base further experiments on to decide what works best for you.
1. Properly forge the blade
2. Normalize after forging
3. Anneal (I use multiple anneal cycles)
4. Grind/shape the blade to approx. 80% complete, leaving the edge of the blade overly thick to prevent warpage during hardening
5. Using the proper quench media for your chosen material, pre-heat the quench to between 120-160F.
6. Utilizing a "soft" flame (#3 tip), begin heating your blade from the ricasso with sweeping passes the length of the blade. (the ricasso acts as a heat sink, so initally concentrate on this area.) Switch heating from side to side to help avoid warpage. As the blade begins to heat up, you will need to move the torch more rapidly along the blade's edge to ensure even heating, and avoid overheating. The trick is to bring approx. 1/3 to 1/2 of the blades width to critical temp while keeping the spine below critical. Since your eyes cannot detect when critical temp is reached, use a magnet to determine this. (the heating process may take 5-10 min for larger blades) Once critical temp is achieved, quench immediatly. (for steels to harden properly, they must go from critical to less than 400F in six seconds or less, and warm oil will cool faster than cold oil)
If you are using a limiter plate in your quench tank, quench the point first, count to five, and roll the blade back until the rest of the blade is quenched, count to 5 again, then countinue until you no longer can see smoke or fumes coming off the oil.
7. DO NOT TAKE THE BLADE OUT OF THE OIL! ALLOW IT TO REMAIN THERE OVERNIGHT, AND COOL DOWN IN THE OIL. This is one of the keys to the multiple quench. Repeat this step until you are satisfied with the results (two to six times have yeilded the best results)
8. After the final quench cycle is completed Clean the scale with a 120 grit belt, and temper. Temper at least 2 hours at the chosen temp, the same number of times you quenched, allowing the blade to cool to room temp between each tempering cycle.
9. After the final temper, allow to cool to room temp, and quench in liquid nitrogen. Again your will have to experiment to find what duration works best for you.
10. Once the nitrogen quench is finished, temper the blade one final time at 25F HIGHER THAN YOU PREVIOUS TEMPERING TEMP.
Finish as you normally would. I have not given specific temps or number of cycles, as this often depends on the individuals shop and methods/desires. I will tell you that all of my 5160 or 52100 blades that are treated in this manner will eaisly pass all the ABS tests. I also highly recommend that you conduct the brass rod test on all your finished blades to ensure your methods are working. (If you would like to hear more about the brass rod test, post the question and I would be happy to answer it.) One more thing, just an opinion, The cryo does work well on some steels with less than 5% Cr. it can increase the cutting ability of 5160 by as much as 20% if all the other steps are conducted correctly. And the last, I cannot stress enough that all of the factors have to come together to achieve a high performace blade. Just conducting one step or the other MAY enhance performace, but why have chopped liver, when you can have a steak. Didn't mean to get so long winded, but I hope this will help in understanding the multiple quench.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey
------------------
Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"
[This message has been edited by Ed Caffrey (edited 29 September 1999).]
There are a number of steps that can, and do improve the charcteristics I desire in my blades. They are all inclusive, and doing only one without the others will not give optimum results. I will not attempt to convince you that my way is the only one, but will give you the basics that you can base further experiments on to decide what works best for you.
1. Properly forge the blade
2. Normalize after forging
3. Anneal (I use multiple anneal cycles)
4. Grind/shape the blade to approx. 80% complete, leaving the edge of the blade overly thick to prevent warpage during hardening
5. Using the proper quench media for your chosen material, pre-heat the quench to between 120-160F.
6. Utilizing a "soft" flame (#3 tip), begin heating your blade from the ricasso with sweeping passes the length of the blade. (the ricasso acts as a heat sink, so initally concentrate on this area.) Switch heating from side to side to help avoid warpage. As the blade begins to heat up, you will need to move the torch more rapidly along the blade's edge to ensure even heating, and avoid overheating. The trick is to bring approx. 1/3 to 1/2 of the blades width to critical temp while keeping the spine below critical. Since your eyes cannot detect when critical temp is reached, use a magnet to determine this. (the heating process may take 5-10 min for larger blades) Once critical temp is achieved, quench immediatly. (for steels to harden properly, they must go from critical to less than 400F in six seconds or less, and warm oil will cool faster than cold oil)
If you are using a limiter plate in your quench tank, quench the point first, count to five, and roll the blade back until the rest of the blade is quenched, count to 5 again, then countinue until you no longer can see smoke or fumes coming off the oil.
7. DO NOT TAKE THE BLADE OUT OF THE OIL! ALLOW IT TO REMAIN THERE OVERNIGHT, AND COOL DOWN IN THE OIL. This is one of the keys to the multiple quench. Repeat this step until you are satisfied with the results (two to six times have yeilded the best results)
8. After the final quench cycle is completed Clean the scale with a 120 grit belt, and temper. Temper at least 2 hours at the chosen temp, the same number of times you quenched, allowing the blade to cool to room temp between each tempering cycle.
9. After the final temper, allow to cool to room temp, and quench in liquid nitrogen. Again your will have to experiment to find what duration works best for you.
10. Once the nitrogen quench is finished, temper the blade one final time at 25F HIGHER THAN YOU PREVIOUS TEMPERING TEMP.
Finish as you normally would. I have not given specific temps or number of cycles, as this often depends on the individuals shop and methods/desires. I will tell you that all of my 5160 or 52100 blades that are treated in this manner will eaisly pass all the ABS tests. I also highly recommend that you conduct the brass rod test on all your finished blades to ensure your methods are working. (If you would like to hear more about the brass rod test, post the question and I would be happy to answer it.) One more thing, just an opinion, The cryo does work well on some steels with less than 5% Cr. it can increase the cutting ability of 5160 by as much as 20% if all the other steps are conducted correctly. And the last, I cannot stress enough that all of the factors have to come together to achieve a high performace blade. Just conducting one step or the other MAY enhance performace, but why have chopped liver, when you can have a steak. Didn't mean to get so long winded, but I hope this will help in understanding the multiple quench.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey
------------------
Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"
[This message has been edited by Ed Caffrey (edited 29 September 1999).]
- Joined
- Aug 4, 1999
- Messages
- 2,596
Ed,
Cut,pasted,saved and printed!!! It's information like this that makes this forum a great place!! I use O1 often for new designs because it's easy to machine and grind. I do all my heat treating in an oven. Not very exciting, I WILL be using this information!!
Thanks,
Neil Blackwood
------------------
http://members.aol.com/blademakr/BlackwoodWP.html
Cut,pasted,saved and printed!!! It's information like this that makes this forum a great place!! I use O1 often for new designs because it's easy to machine and grind. I do all my heat treating in an oven. Not very exciting, I WILL be using this information!!
Thanks,
Neil Blackwood
------------------
http://members.aol.com/blademakr/BlackwoodWP.html
Ed:
Nice description of your heat treat process, mine very simular except I haven't played with the cryo yet. I will!! I built a torch with two tips, looks like the back half of an earwig! Victor sells one but at $125 buying two tips to make one is much cheaper and If you have two old tips lying around......My new torch tip makes an even heat much easer. Why if you only austinize the edge would you put a shelf in your quench tank? Ed I use the brass rod test but I am not confident with it. Please describe the test and maybe I will feel better. Were you at Dunkerly's Hammer in?
Kitty and I really enjoyed it!
Doug
Nice description of your heat treat process, mine very simular except I haven't played with the cryo yet. I will!! I built a torch with two tips, looks like the back half of an earwig! Victor sells one but at $125 buying two tips to make one is much cheaper and If you have two old tips lying around......My new torch tip makes an even heat much easer. Why if you only austinize the edge would you put a shelf in your quench tank? Ed I use the brass rod test but I am not confident with it. Please describe the test and maybe I will feel better. Were you at Dunkerly's Hammer in?
Kitty and I really enjoyed it!
Doug
- Joined
- Apr 27, 1999
- Messages
- 6,117
Thanks to all, particularly Ed. I'm developing a hankering for some 5160 or 52100 blades. I was thinking that I could make a heck of a machete using 5160.
Finished a camp knife, forged to shape, 10 inch X 1.5 inch blade, flat ground from edge to spine, tripple quenched tripple drawn and it's nice!! Will eventully test to distruction! I have handed it to any one needing a big knife for somthing, and it always comes back with the borrower wanting to know if they could have it rather than it being distroyed! It is a test knife and I Told several people to use and abuse and let me know how they like it. It passes the chop test and the rope test, and others that folks have invented. (Can opening test, stiring camp fire test, Fire wood cutting test, one slice thru aluminum can without spilling test and the can I really try to cut up a car tire, if I want to test!)
Make one for youself from old car spring, you will like it!!
Doug
Make one for youself from old car spring, you will like it!!
Doug