Diamonds coming off stones

Joined
Nov 20, 2009
Messages
8
Hi there
i have been using my dmt diafolds for a few weeks, reprofiled a few esee blades and sharpened a few folders
however the blue stone ?grit? has smooth spots on the edges and middle an there is no abbrasion in these spots
i havent been bearing down on them either
has anyone else experience this, is it normal
otherwise im very happy with them.

cheers
 
Thats been my problem with diamond stones. The diamonds either break off, or sink into the softer steel that they are embedded in. I never get much life out of them, especially when sharpening the new "super steels".
 
You are using too much pressure and no lubrication. Diamonds don't sink into the metal. They are attached by electroless nickel plating. Nickel is not particularly hard, and the diamond particles will break or pull out of the nickel.
 
You are using too much pressure and no lubrication. Diamonds don't sink into the metal. They are attached by electroless nickel plating. Nickel is not particularly hard, and the diamond particles will break or pull out of the nickel.

Ben Dale from Edge Pro would disagree with you. I had a converstion with him about why he doesnt use diamonds nor reccommend there use. After an extensive research and trail and error, his conclusions were that the hard diamonds sink into the soft steel they are electrolessly attached too.

When I bought my diamond hones, I wanted to use them for quick stock removal. If you cant apply much pressure, heck...might as well use a standard course stone.
 
Ben Dale from Edge Pro would disagree with you. I had a converstion with him about why he doesnt use diamonds nor reccommend there use. After an extensive research and trail and error, his conclusions were that the hard diamonds sink into the soft steel they are electrolessly attached too.

When I bought my diamond hones, I wanted to use them for quick stock removal. If you cant apply much pressure, heck...might as well use a standard course stone.

I've been using the same Smith's and DMT diamond stones for years. No trouble at all. Light pressure...a little water....great results.
 
Here is a quote I found with a quick google search:

Edge-Pro Diamond Stones and tapes- Few years ago Edge-Pro inc. introduced diamond stones and tapes. While diamond benchstones, powders, pastes and liquid solutions are very popular these days for sharpening all sorts of implements, Edge-Pro stones are specifically for ceramic knives. In exceptional cases you may use them on super hard alloys, 65HRC and above. There is a reason for that, and I'll quote Ben Dale, the owner and founder of the Edge-Pro inc:
We only stock them for ceramic knives. I have tested every diamond on the market and not one of them lasted much over a couple of hours and most of them much less. So in total frustration I was telling a engineer friend of my dilemma and he suggested I call a tool company that specializes in diamond tools for industry, to get the straight story. So I did. I asked them if they would build me a tool to use on 58 Rockwell high carbon stainless. They said NO. They said that diamonds should never be used on steel and if they built me the tool, it would not last 10 minutes. Here is what happens. The diamonds sink into the steel, the steel surrounds the diamonds and pulls them off the plates. However if you are using a diamond on ceramic or carbide, the material is way to hard for the diamonds to sink in so they ride along on the points undisturbed. Now I know everyone sells diamonds for knife sharpening and here is why I think they get away with it and I can't. You buy a Gatco or Lansky Diamond, you get it out a few times a year and sharpen a few knives. The diamonds last a few years and you order a new set, thinking that was just fine. I sell a lot of Edge-Pro's to customers going into the sharpening business. These people are sharpening over 100 knives a day. Under these conditions a diamond won't make it to lunch.

I can add from my experience that diamond stone longevity sadly isn't comparable to waterstones. All major diamond sharpening stone manufacturers, including DMT, EzLap, etc, do warn you not to apply excessive pressure when using the stones, exactly because of the reason stated above, diamonds sink into the soft metal and when you push the metal it simply rips diamond crystals out of the base. It makes sense on the physical level. For large amounts of knives, even light pressure won't help. Especially, when you are using higher grit, i.e. bigger crystals. Also, when using the Edge-pro most of the people I have seen live or on videos, tend to apply quite a bit of a pressure, me too :) Makes work faster after all. On the bench stone, it's the opposite, you hold the knife, stone is stationary and unless you are focusing, or if you apply excessive pressure you will loose edge control easily. So, you are being more careful, or alternatively, unsuccessful in sharpening.
 
That probably means that diamond stones don't work well on the edge pro. However some guys have been using theirs for years and they say they are still as abrasive as they were before.
 
I've been using the same Smith's and DMT diamond stones for years. No trouble at all. Light pressure...a little water....great results.

Same for me. DMT stones and some water does the trick for my INFI, 1095 and S30/S60V blades. Purchasing a strop and compound took my blades to a whole new level. I would maybe contact whomever you got the stone from (or DMT directly) and see if there is anything they can do. You may have gotten a stone where the bond between the diamonds and base metal is bad.

The Edge-Pro is awesome and I'd love to have one, I mean look at the polished edges on Ankerson's blades, oh well maybe someday.
 
The key to using the diamonds stones is to use light pressure. When I first started using DMT's black course stone I wore it out in one day by applying to much pressure.
 
I thought the same thing about my blue coarse Diafold. Listening to knifenut1013 that "they will start to feel less gritty but in reality are just getting broken in."

I took my worn out coarse stone and rubbed it against a mirror and it scratched it easily. Not sure if that helps, but mine have smoothed out and they still sharpen like crazy.

Of course, I don't go "Cave Man" on them and blast them with pressure.
 
I don't think diamonds will sink into steel, knife steels are too hard for even diamonds to embed themselves into it with hand pressure. You can make a diamond file by hammering diamond dust into a piece of steel but thats a lot more pressure.

What I think the company specialising in diamond tools should be saying is diamonds react with ferrous metals at high temperature to form iron carbide which is why diamond tools are not used to machine ferrous materials as they react rapidly at high temperatures and loose their effectiveness. Boron Nitride is used to machine ferrous materials instead of diamonds.

I have used a DMT stone for over 10 years and its still cutting although its pretty slow now.
 
We only stock them for ceramic knives. I have tested every diamond on the market and not one of them lasted much over a couple of hours and most of them much less.What was he doing wrong? So in total frustration I was telling a engineer friend of my dilemma and he suggested I call a tool company that specializes in diamond tools for industry, to get the straight story.Which company did he call? So I did. I asked them if they would build me a tool to use on 58 Rockwell high carbon stainless. They said NO. They said that diamonds should never be used on steel and if they built me the tool, it would not last 10 minutes. Why is it that so many users here manage to make them work for hours at a time, if it is impossible? Here is what happens when you use excessive pressure. The diamonds sink into the steel, the steel surrounds the diamonds and pulls them off the plates. However if you are using a diamond on ceramic or carbide, the material is way to hard for the diamonds to sink in so they ride along on the points undisturbed. Now I know everyone sells diamonds for knife sharpening and here is why I think they get away with it and I can't. You buy a Gatco or Lansky Diamond, you get it out a few times a year and sharpen a few knives. The diamonds last a few years and you order a new set, thinking that was just fine. I sell a lot of Edge-Pro's to customers going into the sharpening business. These people are sharpening over 100 knives a day. Under these conditions a diamond won't make it to lunch.

I can add from my experience that diamond stone longevity sadly isn't comparable to waterstones. All major diamond sharpening stone manufacturers, including DMT, EzLap, etc, do warn you not to apply excessive pressure when using the stones, exactly because of the reason stated above, diamonds sink into the soft metal and when you push the metal it simply rips diamond crystals out of the base. It makes sense on the physical level. For large amounts of knives, even light pressure won't help. And we know this because? Especially, when you are using higher grit, i.e. bigger crystals. Also, when using the Edge-pro most of the people I have seen live or on videos, tend to apply quite a bit of a pressure, me too :) Makes work faster after all. On the bench stone, it's the opposite, you hold the knife, stone is stationary and unless you are focusing, or if you apply excessive pressure you will loose edge control easily. So, you are being more careful, or alternatively, unsuccessful in sharpening. You are being unsuccessful in sharpening if you are using your tools properly?

I added comments in red, not to argue with you ricklee, but to point out that the quote is almost useless for an EP user, let alone using diamond stones free hand. Rather than try to justify his inability to use the stones, he could have simply stated, "Diamond stones do not work well in an EP, as the tendency of most users to bear down on EP stones is the fastest way to destroy diamond stones."

As far as the OP, you could probably send it back to DMT for less than a buck, and they could tell you what happened.
 
Question: I often hear people say that the diamond stones need to get "broken in" and after a few uses they will cut much less aggressively. What is happening to the diamond hone after just a few uses that makes it cut less aggressively?
 
I personally feel you need a balance. If you use too little pressure, I find that it more or less won't sharpen the knife on a coarse DMT stone. The key is to use enough pressure without going caveman on it. Of course, there's no way to find that magical sweet spot without some practice.
 
Rather than try to justify his inability to use the stones, he could have simply stated, "Diamond stones do not work well in an EP, as the tendency of most users to bear down on EP stones is the fastest way to destroy diamond stones."
... that is what he said???

On the bench stone, it's the opposite, you hold the knife, stone is stationary and unless you are focusing, or if you apply excessive pressure you will loose edge control easily. So, you are being more careful, or alternatively, unsuccessful in sharpening. You are being unsuccessful in sharpening if you are using your tools properly?

Using excessive pressure isn't proper use, I'm not sure where you picked that up in the quote. Being focused and careful is proper, using excessive pressure causes loss of edge control and unsuccessful sharpening.
 
"the steel surrounds the diamonds and pulls them off the plates."
You read it wrong. The diamonds catch in the blade steel and are pulled out of the nickel matrix on the stone. They are "drug" out.
 
I have retired all of my diamond "stones". They cut way too slowly. I don't have the time or the patience to monkey with them. I use large Corundum (Al2O3), Carborundum (SiC), and Washita (microcrystaline quartz) stones on a jig of my own design, and they are much faster and cheaper. When I used the diamond "stones", they didn't even make it to lunch.
 
I recently purchased some double sided diasharps and after maybe 10 smallish knives there is an easily visible area where the diamonds are missing on the extra course side. The course, fine, and extra fine all seem to be in working order but the extra course is pretty much garbage now. I'm sure some will say poor technique but maybe instead of breaking in it just broke. Whether they sunk or popped out, the bond between the crystal and metal was not adequate to handle MY sharpening needs. On to an edge pro for me. Even if the owner Ben doesn't give "doctoral thesis" quality answers in discussing his views on diamonds.
 
... that is what he said???

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Using excessive pressure isn't proper use, I'm not sure where you picked that up in the quote. Being focused and careful is proper, using excessive pressure causes loss of edge control and unsuccessful sharpening.

My reading comprehension is just badly challenged right now...:D I understood that last part differently when I read it the first time. I didn't meant to imply that excessive pressure was important, in fact, it appears that that portion of my response had nothing to do with anything...:D

He does say the heavy pressure kills diamonds, but only in the midst of a quote that says they do not last 10 minutes, they cannot be made to work properly, and will never be able to do the job. My point was simply that he could have dropped quite a bit of the diatribe and it would have been a much more accurate bit of information.
 
My reading comprehension is just badly challenged right now...:D I understood that last part differently when I read it the first time. I didn't meant to imply that excessive pressure was important, in fact, it appears that that portion of my response had nothing to do with anything...:D

He does say the heavy pressure kills diamonds, but only in the midst of a quote that says they do not last 10 minutes, they cannot be made to work properly, and will never be able to do the job. My point was simply that he could have dropped quite a bit of the diatribe and it would have been a much more accurate bit of information.

I hear ya, and I see your point. Everyone has their opinions. I have never gotten my best results from diamond stones.
 
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