Did the Indiana SB181 bill ( regarding OTF's) ever pass ?

[Luke0697]

I've looked all over and found it rather difficult to find current news on Indiana and it's Out-The-Front automatic knife law. Are they legal ? I can't find anything recent ! If you know anything please tell me, I'm sure others would want to know as well.

Ps: this is also my first post, so I apologize if this post is in the wrong place or etc.

 

[jfalkos]

Welcome to BladeForums!! Courtesy of Kniferights..."May 13, 2013: Indiana Governor Mike Pence has signed HB1563 which repeals the state's irrational ban on switchblade knives. The new law takes effect on July 1, 2013. Please note that this repeal did not include Knife Law Preemption, we're going to see about that next time around, so any local laws banning switchblades are still in effect. Thanks again to Senators Jim Tomes and Johnny Nugent for their tireless efforts working with Knife Rights to pass this repeal."

Keep a few things in mind...I found this on the internet and I'm not a lawyer. Local laws can still ban whatever they want. Many workplaces or businesses ban knives of any kind. Police officers do not know every law, and even those that do may choose to write up knives under different laws. Switchblades are not allowed by federal law to be transported between state lines. If this bothers you don't buy an automatic, because I'm pretty sure that few autos are made in Indiana.

Hope this helps. Not trying to be a downer. I really hope more states take this initiative!

 

[glistam]

Here is the official site with bill text as enrolled:
http://www.in.gov/apps/lsa/session/...est=getBill&doctype=HB&docno=1563#latest_info

Now you will please pardon me as I perform some important nitpicking. Not trying to be a jerk, I just need to make these things clear for the sake of correct legal information. I hate internet legal rumors:

Keep a few things in mind...I found this on the internet and I'm not a lawyer. Local laws can still ban whatever they want. Many workplaces or businesses ban knives of any kind.

Absolutely. Counties and cities can ban things that are not banned by the state (unless there is premeption, which there is not in IN). It's also very easy to get fired if your employer prohibits knives.

Police officers do not know every law, and even those that do may choose to write up knives under different laws.

False. A police officer making an arrest or citation for a law that no longer exists is in violation of your civil rights and is liable under federal law, not to mention being fired by his department. It is a police officer's job to know the law. Please note there is a difference between an arrest for a vague or poorly worded knife law, and one for a non-existent one. The only way one could be charged under different laws is if there is evidence of a crime being committed or planned, such as assault, robbery or attempted murder, and the officer has to prove this rather than mere possession of a certain knife.

Switchblades are not allowed by federal law to be transported between state lines. If this bothers you don't buy an automatic, because I'm pretty sure that few autos are made in Indiana.

Mostly true. Switchblades cannot be sold between states under federal law. You can transport them yourself in the context of travel (not sale) so long as the other states also legally allow possession. However, the point does stand that it's not very likely any autos are made in Indiana due to the ban before, and therefore obtaining one would require you to either participate in a violation of federal law by ordering from out of state (the buyer is not committing a crime, only the seller, but do you want to do business with criminals?), or driving to another state, buying and driving back (which is legal).

 

[jfalkos]

Thank you for the clarifications! Of course police aren't allowed to use non-standing laws, but it does happen, and that's why it is citizens' responsibilities to be aware of their legal rights. My point is more along the lines of being written up for weapons carry *with intent*, even though this law exempts switchblades from illegal weapons status. I could be carrying a Swiss Army knife, perfectly legally, but if I get arrested for shoplifting the police officer could say that I had intent to use it as a deadly weapon blah blah blah. This would be more likely with a switchblade because until this law has been in effect for a while, cops will probably assume autos are still illegal. It may be their job to enforce the law but there is NO way that they know every law that comes through the Governor's office.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Glistam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the federal law banned shipping autos via the US mail service. I thought that use of other shippers like UPS/FEDEX was legal.

 

[Luke0697]

Thanks, as disappointing as that is, you guys helped clear that up for me haha. So let's say I bought an OTF online and had it shipped here ? Would police be notified and have it confiscated or something ? I bought a balisong a month ago and had to come into my post office to sign off for it, so I guess they know what it is you're having shipped to you. Would buying an OTF just be a general bad idea ? Haha I mean I have zero intent to break laws, but if I have an OTF an just keep it at my house I don't see what's wrong with that.

 

[glistam]

Glistam, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that the federal law banned shipping autos via the US mail service. I thought that use of other shippers like UPS/FEDEX was legal.

Both are illegal. It's two separate laws. The sale over state lines is illegal under Title 15, Chapter 29 of the US Code. This means any crossing of a state line in the course of commerce, with the product being a switchblade. This law does not prohibit mere shipping or transportation outside of commerce.

Title 18, § 1716 of the US Code on the other hand is what prohibits mailing via the US postal service. It does not affect UPS, Fedex, DHL etc.

People seem to intermix these two laws often. For example the common misconception that merely being law enforcement, paramedic or military permits you to buy autos comes from mixing up the exceptions to these two statutes. Whereas the Postal Service law allows shipping to such clients, it's still illegal under Title 15 to have sold them to such clients in the first place as it contains no such exception (it only allows contract-based sale to the military, no one else). Title 15 Chapter 29 is notoriously unenforced though.

Thanks, as disappointing as that is, you guys helped clear that up for me haha. So let's say I bought an OTF online and had it shipped here ? Would police be notified and have it confiscated or something ? I bought a balisong a month ago and had to come into my post office to sign off for it, so I guess they know what it is you're having shipped to you. Would buying an OTF just be a general bad idea ? Haha I mean I have zero intent to break laws, but if I have an OTF an just keep it at my house I don't see what's wrong with that.

Well, it's a bit more complicated. The postal service categorically cannot determine the contents of mail sent to you unless it comes from a foreign country or it trips some kind of drug or explosive sensing equipment, or with a federal warrant. You can't tell an auto from a legal regular folder even with an X-ray. If the post office required you to come in and sign for a package, it has nothing to do with what's in it. That was just based on the type of delivery proof the shipper put on it when he sent it out. If you'd actually broken the law they would not make you sign and then let you go; they'd have arrested you.

Which brings me to my point I was getting at above. While it is illegal to sell autos (not just OTFs, all switchblades) over state lines, there are three "howevers."
-It's only illegal to sell them, not buy them. You do not commit any crime by placing an order unless you order from outside the US (then it's importing which is another matter entirely). You are buying from a criminal, but are not a criminal yourself for doing it.
-The law is virtually unenforceable. Like I said, nobody can look inside your mail without a warrant, and the feds just don't care enough to even look anymore. If they did, places like BladePlay or BladeHQ would have been hauled of to jail long ago.
-Buying in person or ordering online from a company in the same state as you is perfectly legal under federal law.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

Both are illegal. It's two separate laws. The sale over state lines is illegal under Title 15, Chapter 29 of the US Code. This means any crossing of a state line in the course of commerce, with the product being a switchblade. This law does not prohibit mere shipping or transportation outside of commerce.

Title 18, § 1716 of the US Code on the other hand is what prohibits mailing via the US postal service. It does not affect UPS, Fedex, DHL etc.

People seem to intermix these two laws often. For example the common misconception that merely being law enforcement, paramedic or military permits you to buy autos comes from mixing up the exceptions to these two statutes. Whereas the Postal Service law allows shipping to such clients, it's still illegal under Title 15 to have sold them to such clients in the first place as it contains no such exception (it only allows contract-based sale to the military, no one else). Title 15 Chapter 29 is notoriously unenforced though.



Well, it's a bit more complicated. The postal service categorically cannot determine the contents of mail sent to you unless it comes from a foreign country or it trips some kind of drug or explosive sensing equipment, or with a federal warrant. You can't tell an auto from a legal regular folder even with an X-ray. If the post office required you to come in and sign for a package, it has nothing to do with what's in it. That was just based on the type of delivery proof the shipper put on it when he sent it out. If you'd actually broken the law they would not make you sign and then let you go; they'd have arrested you.

Which brings me to my point I was getting at above. While it is illegal to sell autos (not just OTFs, all switchblades) over state lines, there are three "howevers."
-It's only illegal to sell them, not buy them. You do not commit any crime by placing an order unless you order from outside the US (then it's importing which is another matter entirely). You are buying from a criminal, but are not a criminal yourself for doing it.
-The law is virtually unenforceable. Like I said, nobody can look inside your mail without a warrant, and the feds just don't care enough to even look anymore. If they did, places like BladePlay or BladeHQ would have been hauled of to jail long ago.
-Buying in person or ordering online from a company in the same state as you is perfectly legal under federal law.

Thanks for the clarification, Glistam. I appreciate how you try to keep track of all the knife laws and changes everywhere.

One thing I need explained, re: your very last sentence... If I buy or order from an in-my-state seller, which is legal, how does my in-state seller get his/her merchandise legally? Wouldn't the transfer of, say, Pro-Tech knives from California to Texas, be "interstate commerce" and therefore illegal under Title 15 C 29? Is that part of the "notoriously unenforced" part?

 

[glistam]

Thanks for the clarification, Glistam. I appreciate how you try to keep track of all the knife laws and changes everywhere.

One thing I need explained, re: your very last sentence... If I buy or order from an in-my-state seller, which is legal, how does my in-state seller get his/her merchandise legally? Wouldn't the transfer of, say, Pro-Tech knives from California to Texas, be "interstate commerce" and therefore illegal under Title 15 C 29? Is that part of the "notoriously unenforced" part?

I have no way of being certain about it because when I attempt to question switchblade sellers (this includes big ones like Benchmade) about the legal aspect of how they are able to do business, they suddenly clam up. It's entirely possible they rely solely on the lack of enforcement, but my other theory is that, since shipping itself is not illegal, the transfer from one company location to another falls outside the meaning of "commerce." At least, if the feds ever came knocking, I'm betting that's the strategy their lawyers would employ. I know for a fact that Benchmade handles servicing of autos by requiring the customer to come to a physical store, then sending the auto from the store to HQ. So at least they think that makes it all legal.

That of course would not explain how ProTech would get it's merch to non ProTech seller locations. I did get a seller to communicate with my privately once that they simply take a calculated risk. To date, virtually every 15 C 29 case, including Spyderco, involved foreign import.

 

[Critter]

Mostly true. Switchblades cannot be sold between states under federal law. You can transport them yourself in the context of travel (not sale) so long as the other states also legally allow possession. However, the point does stand that it's not very likely any autos are made in Indiana due to the ban before, and therefore obtaining one would require you to either participate in a violation of federal law by ordering from out of state (the buyer is not committing a crime, only the seller, but do you want to do business with criminals?), or driving to another state, buying and driving back (which is legal).

Not exactly. You can find many dealers in Indiana who sell automatics and they get them direct from the manufacturers in a perfectly legal manner. Once the autos are in a state where they are legal, irrespective of the legal guise under which they were allowed to purchase them from the manufacturer, the dealer can sell to anyone to whom it is legal to sell. We wouldn't be expending this effort if there was no practical (and legal) way for individuals to purchase autos in a state once we repeal a ban. That is, after all, the whole point.

 

[glistam]

Not exactly. You can find many dealers in Indiana who sell automatics and they get them direct from the manufacturers in a perfectly legal manner. Once the autos are in a state where they are legal, irrespective of the legal guise under which they were allowed to purchase them from the manufacturer, the dealer can sell to anyone to whom it is legal to sell. We wouldn't be expending this effort if there was no practical (and legal) way for individuals to purchase autos in a state once we repeal a ban. That is, after all, the whole point.

That in turn relates more to my later comment (#9) above, which is part agreement with you and part "I don't know".

 

[Critter]

That in turn relates more to my later comment (#9) above, which is part agreement with you and part "I don't know".

Some things it is better not to know. But, it is all done legally.

 

[Luke0697]

So basically it's illegal, but you could easily just order one and get away with it with the lax knife laws...

What's the point of having a law and not enforcing it haha