Difference in Steel?

E

elilode

Joined
Jan 26, 2005
Messages
3
My friend and I are admiring his Rapala 9" filet knife and comparing it to our Wusthof cook's knife and I noticed that the steel seems different... (btw - not trying to drop names just giving reference to the maker and style of blade)

I am not even sure how to ask the question??? Is there a difference in the steel used for each knife? The Rapala seems to stay sharp (he has had it for 15 years and not once sharpened it!) whereas the Wusthof seems to dull much more quickly and often...

Any info would be great!
Thanks,
Elizabeth
 
A huge difference, one that I'm sure someone will be able to answer extensively very soon. As for the Fillet knife, I always have used a Marttiini Fillet knife, they're made in Finland and I just love the things. I've never had to sharpen mine and I can still shave with it.

I just googled real quick and this link may interest you:
http://users.ameritech.net/knives/steels.htm
 
Yes, different steels probably. I am not familiar with your friends knife, but I do own a Wustof and friends of mine in the industry love them. Here's the rub I am guessin: Your Wustof will be easier to sharpen and get a sharp edge, your friends knife will be very painstaking to sharpen and be harder to get a great edge. For cooking knives i prefer a softer steel and one that can be sharpened easily. By the way, if it (friends knife) is a serated blade, you will, in my opinion, ever get a decent edge on it ever again.
Others will no doubt have more thoughts. Don't toss the Wustof...
 
The two knives probably do use different steel. They are also used in different ways. If a fillet knife is only used on fish, and not very often, it may hold an edge for a long time. If the Wustof is chopping on a cutting board or used on anything frozen it will dull faster than the fillet.

Steels do make a difference, so does what angle they are sharpened at (the fillet knife is likely sharpened at a thinner angle and will slice better simply becuase of that), how they are made and heat treated etc etc...

Hard to tell exactly what steel is used in these, unless someone here would venture a guess or has the same knives.

For more info on steel, read FAQ #10 (Joe Talmadge):
http://www.edcknives.com/faqs.html
(The one on sharpening is good too #9)
 
I heard that higher end steels aren't that much different (performance wise), and that HTing is the real determining factor.
 
That Talmadge info is as good a discussion of the subject as I have seen. In any cas e there are many choices for our knives !!
 
There are lots of different types of steel. If the Rapala is made from stainless steel (if there is no obvious rust it probably is stainless) it may be made from Sandvik 12C27 alloy. This is almost a razor blade alloy and takes a very sharp edge. This is not likely to be all that tougher than the Wusthoff alloy so the edge holding difference may relate to the filet knife not being used as much as your Wusthoff. If you want to try a knife that will stay sharp an exceptionally long time try a japanese knife. You might try a MAC Superior SA-80. http://www.macknife.com/page7.html
 
underaged! said:
I heard that higher end steels aren't that much different (performance wise), and that HTing is the real determining factor.
Click to expand...

Any steel you buy from a reputable manufacturer will have the best heat treat possible (99% of the time). ALL steels can be hardened to ANY hardness, but it's a question of how brittle and tough they are at that hardness. You want the heat treat to maximize hardness (for edge holding) without taking it so far that it loses toughness or becomes brittle.

So, given a proper heat treat, there is a huge difference. For example comparing the 420 variant that is used in CASE "tru-sharp" steel (which cannot be hardened more than Rc56-57 (guessing here) to something like D2 or VG10 (which is often at Rc59-61) is like night and day. BUT the 420 is more stainless, which is good for collectors...there are always trade-offs.

Any steel you buy from a knock-off company may have serious problems with the heat treat, so if you buy quality, the steel does matter, but if you buy cheap, then it may not matter (cheap usually implies lower grade steel anyway).
 
I find that the german kitchen knives are faily soft. The reason is that they rather have the edge roll, than the edge chipping because somebody is putting the kitchen knife in the dishwasher or banging them around in their drawer. The rolled edge is relatively easily restored by steeling. Also I have the feeling that the steel is, what many of us would consider "inferior". It is not so much that it is really inferior but more that they choose a trade-off which people that care for their knifes don't like. They choose a highly corrosion resistant steel in case somebody leaves their knifes in the wet sink for an extended period of time. These highly corrosion resistant steel usually do not have the edge holding or the toughness of less corrosion resistant steels like VG-10, ATS-34 or as an extreme example A2 and D2 (which are not considered stainless). The decreased toughness probably requires them to be run a little softer anyway. If you want a very corrosion resistant steel for a kitchen knife, MBS-26 is probably the best you will find, but if you are willing to take care of your knifes I would recommend a knife that has a VG-10 steel core.
 
Scandinavian knives like the Rapala are typically hardened more than most others. I have a Marttiini filet knife that I've used for all sorts of carving -- turkey, chicken, and roasts as well as fish. The edge seemed impervious to dulling.

Another factor is the grind. Scandinavians also often use a flat grind that goes right to the cutting edge, with perhaps a very small edge bevel. This makes the blade like a razor, slicing through most tasks cleanly instead of breaking the fibers, dulling the blade.
 
You guys are the best! I have posted a few questions on various subjects in other forums on the net and never have I had so many responses! Just want to say 'thanks' for all the info.

On a matter of clarity...

From the posts I gather that the steel may be different for these two mentioned knifes (Rapala/Marttiini and Wusthof) - how can I tell??

The Rapala is not rusted and has in script on the blade 'hand ground stainless'.

The Wusthof is stainless and as far as I can read the inscription on the blade reads: 4582/23cm, x50CrMoV15.

Though the Wusthof is a considerably larger knife it is not hard to tell that the steel itself seems heavier, almost more 'solid'. If I twick my fingernail across the back of the blades the Wusthof tings like crystal but the Rapala does not really ting at all - more of a dull pluck.

Do these pieces of info tell me anything about the steel used for these knives?

I will check out the info that was mentioned in the posts...

Thanks again!
Elizabeth
 
It's ok to drop brand names here. It's sort of what we live for.

What you are experiencing is the fact that there is a difference in knife designs and materials and some are better suited to certain tasks than others. This awakening and realization can be a double edged sword, so to speak. You will likely end up with a nice little knife collection before all your questions are answered, but it will cost you in both time and money.

You might even make a friend or two on the way.

Welcome to the club.

John
 
X50CrMoV15 is a stainless steel with about .5% carbon and approx. 15% total chrome, Molybdenum (usually .6-1%) and Vanadium (typically about .15%). I think Wusthof claims to harden their knives to 56 Rockwell C. Steels such as these are inexpensive to make knives from, highly stain resistant and the fairly low hardness makes them less likely to chip and easy to sharpen on a softer stone or butcher’s steel. The tradeoff, as you have found out, is that you will to sharpen more frequently than harder, more wear resistant blade steels.



- Frank
 
The alloy used in the Wusthoff knife is maybe a little better than average for a kitchen knife. It has Molybdenum and Vanadium in the steel which should make it wear pretty well. If the Rappala is made with a Sandvik alloy it should actually wear faster than the X50CrMoV15, but it should be easier to sharpen. I would guess that your friend is using his knife less or is taking better care of it than you are your Wusthoff. Be sure to use a wooden or plastic cutting board to protect your edge. Get a sharpener that has two ceramic rods kind of like pencils that stick into a wooden board. If you want to see where the steel in your knives fall relative to some knife steels in general look at the Linder website. As a rough approximation knives with a higher RC (Rockwell hardness scale C) will stay sharp longer, but are more brittle. I would expect the Rapalla to be around 54-56 RC and the Wusthoff to be closer to 56.

http://linder.itchi.de/s/static/en/service.html#

(click on "table of steels" at the above web page)
 
elilode said:
You guys are the best! I have posted a few questions on various subjects in other forums on the net and never have I had so many responses! Just want to say 'thanks' for all the info.

On a matter of clarity...

From the posts I gather that the steel may be different for these two mentioned knifes (Rapala/Marttiini and Wusthof) - how can I tell??

The Rapala is not rusted and has in script on the blade 'hand ground stainless'.

The Wusthof is stainless and as far as I can read the inscription on the blade reads: 4582/23cm, x50CrMoV15.

Though the Wusthof is a considerably larger knife it is not hard to tell that the steel itself seems heavier, almost more 'solid'. If I twick my fingernail across the back of the blades the Wusthof tings like crystal but the Rapala does not really ting at all - more of a dull pluck.

Do these pieces of info tell me anything about the steel used for these knives?

I will check out the info that was mentioned in the posts...

Thanks again!
Elizabeth
Click to expand...

The ring has to do with the blade shape and how it is attached to the handle. Even if you could get the fillet knife to 'ring', the sound is damped by a softer handle material... I do know that pipe wrenches get a sonic hammer test, but that is with a computer analyzing the sound, and no soft materials (like handles) to dampen the ringing.

I have a utility kitchen knife in x50CrMoV15 steel. It's much better than the 420J knives that I was using, but it is still far below MBS26 and VG10 and similar. It's sort of a middle of the road steel.

The fillet knife has a much thinner profile and edge, or is typically not used on a cutting board or maybe not used as often. The heat treat may be different (to bring the blades to a different hardness level).

The steel is likely different, AND other factors contribute to the edge holding question just as much as the steel.
 
There is something divine in handling a finely crafted instrument that makes the hand perform as if it were that of perfection and then there are the ironies that astound and put all names and reputation to question... Speaking of - I have a carving knife I picked up at a local thrift store - for a buck if I remember. All it has on it is Rena-ware - I love it!. What I appreciate most is that it is sturdy, the handle feels solid in my grasp - so many of the cheaper models of knives made today are just that cheap in quality and price. Brings to mind that saying, 'They just don't make 'em like they used to..."

I looked up Rena-ware on the net and as far as I can figure it's the Mary-Kay of cookware! 'Career Path' and all! Not to bash anyone in sales of any kind or Rena-ware in specific - I just enjoyed the humor of it. You never know where you are going to find a product worth appreciation...

I should let you all know I am not a knife nerd - (again no dis on nerds - there is great pleasure in being a nerd as I am of the general sort) - more than anything I am curious about everything - I love to ponder and figure things out. I just didn't want to mislead anyone... Though by the fervor and passion I have encountered here I'd collect knives just so I could talk shop with you guys!
 
I appreciated your mention of finding great knives in thrift stores. I have found dozens of great knives and more dozens of good knives at thrift stores or garage sales. When I suggested that you try a MAC knife it was not that I'd ever found a store front that sold one. I have acquired about 15 of them at thrift stores and garage sales. They just aren't distributed as broadly as they were 30 years ago. If you get yourself a sharpener you can get remarkable knife values from almost any brand sooner or later at a Goodwill. You will just need to sharpen it yourself.
 
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