Different traditions - different environments

[TLM]

There has been on ongoing "fight" about the right kind of wilderness knife on various threads for quite a while.

Lets approach the problem from a different perspective.

We have people from just about all over the world here, lets put the question this way:

WHAT KNIVES ARE TRADITIONALLY USED IN YOUR PART OF THE WORLD AND IN WHAT KIND OF SURROUNDINGS?

TLM

Who comes from the tradition of small knives and axes in the wood. The exception being the Saami who use a larger knife with the small one, the main use for the larger being whacking small birch boughs.

 

[longbow50]

I don't particularly have traditions set down by a people, but I do have traditions passed to me from my father. I suppose that I'm trying to become proficient with as many types of cutting edges as I can, but we always return to the traditions we were raised with eventually. Anyways, according to my pop, saws, hatchets and axes are designed to do the heavier wood cutting chores, fixed blade knives are designed to do the game chores, camp chores and defense chores and pocket knives were designed to do everything else. Maybe that's why I carry a folding knife as EDC, stuff a fixed blade in my pack and carried a saw in my pack. I keep hatchets, (2lb. short axe) in our truck. I just havn't gotten proficient with the axe over the years, but plan on changing that soon.

 

[alco141]

in the course of my travels i would say that the closer ou get to the equator the bigger the knife gets. in africa the machete or panga is the most common tool, especially in tropical africa, as you get to europe and the usa and canada the axe takes a bigger role. in south africa the bushmen there carry a bushmans axe which is a pretty usefull item to handle the soft wood chopping and other hard use needs, their knives tend to be smaller affairs. most of them carry the axe, it is usually honed pretty sharp, and w2ill cut through brush or small trees without much effort.

alex

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...as you get to europe and the usa and canada the axe takes a bigger role.

It depends on what you are doing, for felling you use an actual axe, but for clearing brush you use a variety of long blades, there are several used locally, not so much now as there used to be a generation ago. Of course there is as much variation among axes as there are in knives, soft wood axes are near useless on hardwood trees, you could actually be more efficient felling with a more optimally ground knife than the wrong axe. I carry two as there is a radical difference in the density of the local common wood types. On an interesting note, the GB common grind falls pretty much right inbetween and thus works decently well over most local woods. The Valiant Goloks work very well also, they will easily out chop normal hardware store axes. One of my friends had sent me several times traditional parangs he has made by they never get across the border, someone somewhere has a nice collection by now. We were going to see how the grind he normally uses would work on the local trees, but I can't get the blades through customs.

-Cliff

 

[pict]

Great thread idea.

Here in Brazil the machete is universal. Yes, I would agree that the closer to the equator you get the longer the blade. Axes, sharpened hoes, and bush hooks are used for clearing land in concert with matches, lots of matches. If Brazilians really want to do the job right they light it on FIRE!

Sugar cane is cut with a rather odd looking blade, extremely wide, no point, long (20 cm) wooden handle, and very, very thin steel, with a short hook on the back of the blade. I don't own one of these as of yet becuase I cant see much use for them outside of cutting sugar cane.

Most poor people use small half-tang kitchen-type knives in the bush. This is mainly due to economics but they make them work.

Where I live, in the central highlands, the most popular machete is the 14 inch Tramontina or the Tramontina Bolo. In the central market here in Belo Horizonte they sell 10, 12, 14, and 16 inch machetes. Interestingly the machete itself is regarded as somewhat disposable but a good sheath is a point of pride and people pay more for the sheath than the blade.

Length of machete also varies with the elevation at which it will be used. In the lowlands a 14 or 16 inch is most common. If you go high up into the mountains (6,500 feet in places) the 10 and 12 inch are more common. There just isn't that much up there to cut.

I have encountered illegal loggers in the lower forests and they always have large axes and 14 - 16 inch machetes, maybe a "foice" (bush hook) or two
for clearing ground.

When I run groups out to the bush for my informal "survival school" I hand each pair of guys a 14 or 16 inch Tramontina and a Frosts Mora SWAK. They work on the buddy system and I find it much safer if only one of them has a machete. Granted these are usually newbies ("apartment boys" as one put it) but they all want a Mora at the end of the trip.

I carry my BK-7 and Livesay NRGS neck knife, as long as the person I'm with also has a machete for the ugly stuff. To me, here, a hatchet or axe would be dead weight. If I go out by myself I always have a machete strapped to the pack either a 14 inch Tramontina or a 12 inch Ontario.

Back in PA where I grew up I carrid my USMC Ka-bar and never felt the need to carry much else. I prefer to carry my 12 inch Ontario machete in PA on occasion. Mac

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Most poor people use small half-tang kitchen-type knives in the bush.

The whole "carry what natives use" arguement has to be one of the worst applications of illogic in tool selection used. Look at local fishermen here for example, they have fished here for generations, dependent on it, what do they use for filleting - chef's knives which have been ground down through a couple of generations of use, poor edge retention, cutting ability and handling. They simply don't have the money to spend on buying a dedicated fillet knife. Loan them a high end custom and they will sure appreciate it and use it over what they have, but if you give it to them they will just sell it and go back to the chef's knife.

There is also a huge bias for tool selection, for example the western saw market tends to lack an appreciation for the japanese saws which work much better for a lot of work than the local traditional saws. Lee talks about this in his book on sharpening and his lack of success in trying to make an inroad with the japanese saws. A similar problem exists with japanese wood working tools in general, the chisels and various knives. The methods are a little different as well, Japanese tools focus more on efficiency whereas western ones are more robust.

There is a local channel which shows inuit programming, they show shelter building, tool making, etc., one of the things you notice quickly as they often talk about tools, is how they quickly used the various tools they were introduced to and left the native ones behind. They often use long blades for snow block cutting, I use machetes in the winter to clear snow as we often get thick crusts of ice and shovels won't cut it. Sometimes they use saws, but the local snow (Newfoundland) is better cut with a blade than saw.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas Linton]

Cliff, guy, there is no "argument." He just asked what's traditionally used.
This is not a "what's best" thread.

 

[pict]

Cliff,

As TL said, I'm not making an arguement or recommendation as to what anyone "should" use in the bush here, just stating what I have encountered.

I think that cultures do develop blade types and tools that function in their specific environments to the satisfaction of the people that have to live in those environments.

The choice of cheap kitchen type knives here is driven by economics, like I said. I have evaluated these knives and found them wanting for what I do and instruct others to do here. Actually the nationally produced category of sheath knives is pretty poor in terms of quality. The machetes work well enough but finding a decent, nationally produced 4 - 7 inch fixed blade knife is a challenge. That's why I picked up the Mora SWAK as my official "loaner" knife. They get the job done and I can afford to buy and loan out several at a time.

Don't shoot the messenger. Mac

 

[Hotrod]

Stockman 3 blade is most common around here...

 

[Doug C]

OOPS!Wrong thread.

 

[ras]

I grew up in the Pacific NW and I'm fairly sure there was no traditional knife. Perhaps the local native Americans had one, but those went the way of the first British traders.

The knives I recall seeing most as a kid were folders from Schrade, Case and Buck. For work in the woods we'd use chainsaws, single and double bit axes and D-8 Cats.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm not making an arguement or recommendation as to what anyone "should" use in the bush here, just stating what I have encountered.

I wasn't directing that at you specifically as if you had, I should have been more clear, just commenting in general.

I think that cultures do develop blade types and tools that function in their specific environments to the satisfaction of the people that have to live in those environments.

Yes, but often due to constraints that most people considering knives on Bladeforums don't have. For example I have discussed blades with a traditional maker in a tropical enviroment who makes knives used by working people, serious tools based on a tradition, he learned from a local maker.

Now this is "real world experience" obviously but would you use this to try and argue to someone in the ABS they should match steels if someone asked for a knife for that enviroment? The maker often used mild steel and al alloys, because it was available, not because it was the best choice.

Other times tradition can be like religion in that it can be based on faith. Single bit axes for example should have been replaced directly by double bit ones for felling (see Cook's book for details) as they are much more effective, but they didn't in many places because people don't always pick the tools based on performance.

In terms of performance it is necessary to ask not simply what is used, but also what has been used. What it interesting is to see the various paths that different blades have taken to work in similar tasks, for example the Brush axe is something which obviously came from the mind of someone who was very much an axe person who wanted machete type ability on brush with the feel of an axe.

Even in similar tools, for example Tramontina, Barteaux and Martindale all make machetes which look similar (compare the appropiate models) but they have a very different feel due to tapers and other issues. What is also interesting is how differnet people can prefer different models even for the same tasks. Body type and method play a huge part as well, HI, had to deal with this when they started selling khukuris to people in the US and had to adjust for the average larger size of the western customer base.

-Cliff

 

[TLM]

The whole "carry what natives use" arguement has to be one of the worst applications of illogic in tool selection used.

It would be a good starting point, sometimes from quite a few years of practice it has been shown that these pieces of steel are sufficient.

Besides the point was "what is used" not "what should be used".

Now this is "real world experience" obviously but would you use this to try and argue to someone in the ABS they should match steels if someone asked for a knife for that enviroment? The maker often used mild steel and al alloys, because it was available, not because it was the best choice.

Why in heavens name would you want to match a mild steel knife for material? I think we all quite capable of understanding the issue of local availability and economics.

There is a difference in usage between tools and and "pure" "woodcraft" steel pieces. Locally various types of billhooks have been used as "close to house" tools for centuries if not longer but I have never heard anyone taking one to the woods (that does not make it impossible).

TLM

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Why in heavens name would you want to match a mild steel knife for material?

That was the point, you would not, but yet it is commonly used by the same "natives" used to argue for various blades and materials, if you accept that arguement you also have to accept the consequences in general, you just can't pick the ones that agree with your viewpoint and ignore when it contradicts it.

[Billhooks]

...I have never heard anyone taking one to the woods...

Brush axes are similar and commonly used to clear trails, there was discussion of someone using a bill hook by geber on the forums for exactly this as well, who took it overseas and it worked well there as well. I don't like them as they are too focused, most of a farm implement than a general tool for wood craft. Sickles were common here for that a generation ago, there has been some discussion of them on the HI forum for general vegetation cutting.

Locally the ingrowth isn't so tight that you actually need to cut trails, generally this is only done when you are lot clearing and then most would use a light chainsaw or heavy rotary cutter or just burn it out. This of course tends to happens very quickly to "native" tools, axes are nice, but chainsaws quickly replaced them, and even here where the majority of people burn wood for heat, they are now very rare, all but wiped out in just one generation.

There are still locals who live very primitive, one of the friends of the family lives not a mile from me, no running water, no electricity, cuts his own wood (no power tools), hauls it with a horse, etc. . He is the only guy I know who has to sharpen swede saw blades on a regular basis as he wears them out bucking.

-Cliff

 

[TLM]

Sorry Cliff, you are so good at missing the point, doing wonderfull misquotes and partial quotes and not contributing much to anything that I am not going to discuss this with you.

TLM

One more dead end thread.

 

[Brian Jones]

Yet Another Thread...

 

[Gossman Knives]

Yet Another Thread...

LMFAO
Scott

 

[skammer]

Sorry Cliff, you are so good at missing the point, doing wonderfull misquotes and partial quotes and not contributing much to anything that I am not going to discuss this with you.
TLM

Spell out your point more clearly (minus the jabs) as I can't make sense of it either.

Skam

 

[TLM]

Spell out your point more clearly (minus the jabs) as I can't make sense of it either.

Sorry about that, some random thoughts that somehow came to my mind:


"If one doesn't even know that one doesn't know, one has a problem that is unrecognizable by oneself"

"A truly wonderfull answer, now somebody just has to find the question for that."

"Self_reference is like recursion, it eats your stack."

"With some people you can only have dull points."

TLM

 

[pict]

Cliff,

Good points, we have no arguement. I do think that "when in Rome" is a pretty good palce to start blade selection. At least know what is out there working on a daily basis. That philosophy has directed me towards machetes and away from axes/hatchets just from the environment I live in. Even back in PA now I'm still more prone to use a machete than a hatchet. I even butchered a deer with one last year much to the objection of my friends. They all shut up pretty quick when I removed the shoulders with a single cut and later lopped of the head with a swipe. Quote from Al P. "Man, I gotta get me a machete!" Mac