Diminishing Returns

[mac0731]

Mostly just curious on thoughts here. For discussion sake, let's say the line where not only function but form starts to blur lines.

For myself, if you ignore the country of origin and manufacturing process, it's Rosecraft. Decent (for the price range) steel that does its job, and I think if they produced the same product here in the states even with most of it being cnc and presumably machine assembled, they could ask a price range similar to a vendor cost GEC. Especially if scale material was branched out into some nice jigged bone/etc.

I buy and appreciate GEC, but the reasons I seek them out has less to do with anything that is missing from an RC, but I try to support US made production while still not totally ignoring imports either. For US brands traditional knives that line probably is GEC for me as vendor prices are slightly lower than a comparable Cooper drop.

Edit: adding some knife pics for interest.

 

[brianv]

For me, Rose Craft is impressive. GEC is also impressive. The most I've ever spent for a GEC is $250 for the 2024 Blade Forum knife. It is the only Blade Forum knife I've ever been able to get, as the timing always seemed to be wrong. Prior to the Blade Forum knife the most I had ever spent was $150 and I was nervous about that. I'm comfortable around $100-125.

I understand I will probably have to go up to $200, but honestly I have a hard time with that when I can get a serious tool that does serious work like a reciprocating saw for $175.

I will probably start going for vintage knives and a very careful eye.

 

[mrszeontestpilot]

When I first started really getting into collecting knives, GEC was fairly new. I remember liking them, but not being able to justify the cost at the time. I used to be a lot more interested in Buck knives, but their traditional selection is minimal at this point. I started getting into Case a few years later, and I tend to gravitate to them now. I tried Rough Rider (before the spelling change) for a while, but there's just something about traditional knives made in the home country. As the years have gone on, there have been a few patterns from GEC I've been interested in, and may have been able to actually get something, but I do prefer stainless, and they haven't had a lot of patterns in SS. And lately, they've been so hard to come by and the prices are so high, I'm just not willing to spend that kind of money on a knife. So for the past several years, I've really only been collecting Case for traditionals. I have quite a few at this point, but again, even their prices are pushing it. Not quite completely overboard, but getting close. But again, I think there is only about one other pattern I'd like to acquire and then, well... Maybe I just have enough. I'd say my max is about $100, and even that makes me cringe a bit.
Rough Rider has pretty much lost all my interest. RoseCraft has some very interesting options, but I haven't handled any, and not sure I will.

 

[fishface5]

Rosecraft knives are well built, but they don't have the glorious scales that GEC can provide. Jigged bone, mmmm!

 

[mac0731]

For me, Rose Craft is impressive. GEC is also impressive. The most I've ever spent for a GEC is $250 for the 2024 Blade Forum knife. It is the only Blade Forum knife I've ever been able to get, as the timing always seemed to be wrong. Prior to the Blade Forum knife the most I had ever spent was $150 and I was nervous about that. I'm comfortable around $100-125.

I understand I will probably have to go up to $200, but honestly I have a hard time with that when I can get a serious tool that does serious work like a reciprocating saw for $175.

I will probably start going for vintage knives and a very careful eye.

Most of my purchases are in this range as well. I did shell out a little more for some Waynorth SFOs but that was more of a splurge than "I think these knives will cut or do better than another" mentality. I enjoy the aesthetic of those a lot and they are really handy patterns, and don't regret it as they are some of my most used blades.

Lots of wisdom here on the vintage side. I will say that is definitely not my specialty, but it is interesting to see some comments on spotting the fakes and what to look out for.

When I first started really getting into collecting knives, GEC was fairly new. I remember liking them, but not being able to justify the cost at the time. I used to be a lot more interested in Buck knives, but their traditional selection is minimal at this point. I started getting into Case a few years later, and I tend to gravitate to them now. I tried Rough Rider (before the spelling change) for a while, but there's just something about traditional knives made in the home country. As the years have gone on, there have been a few patterns from GEC I've been interested in, and may have been able to actually get something, but I do prefer stainless, and they haven't had a lot of patterns in SS. And lately, they've been so hard to come by and the prices are so high, I'm just not willing to spend that kind of money on a knife. So for the past several years, I've really only been collecting Case for traditionals. I have quite a few at this point, but again, even their prices are pushing it. Not quite completely overboard, but getting close. But again, I think there is only about one other pattern I'd like to acquire and then, well... Maybe I just have enough. I'd say my max is about $100, and even that makes me cringe a bit.
Rough Rider has pretty much lost all my interest. RoseCraft has some very interesting options, but I haven't handled any, and not sure I will.

Nothing wrong with a good rough rider IMO. For me you can "feel" that quality jump to a Rough Ryder Reserve, Rosecraft, or gateway Jack Wolf which I do appreciate the little finer touch on.

I would love to support case more, and I probably will still try them, but for me it's a dice roll every time. Mostly I buy older 70-80s case it seems to be more reliably finished. I had a really lucky streak with case with good blades, then a kinda crappy streak. Just hard to bounce back from the lemon purchases.

Rosecraft knives are well built, but they don't have the glorious scales that GEC can provide. Jigged bone, mmmm!

Yeah agree I do wish they'd open up on some jigged bone but I have seen some makers have issues with bone quality and warping in different environments so my guess is just not worth it at the time. Which is interesting to me since they offer smooth bone and seems to do fine but maybe jigging compromises more of the structure? Not sure.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[mac0731]

I'm not sure I understand the question.

I guess where the line for other collectors on form/function vs price actually is. I figured this would be a relatively judgement free place to ask since a lot of us collect higher end, and budget, and everything between.

What maker(s) would you say have the ratio where price to either increased function, or increased form (fit and finish) start to level out, and something more expensive would likely not "substantially" be an improvement. Whatever that means to you.

 

[madcap_magician]

I honestly think GEC is a great value.

1. They're probably the best traditional cutlery factory maker right now.
2. They release a lot of patterns with some regularity, but demand is high, so it's fun to chase drops, but if you miss one, there will be another.
3. Demand is high, so resale means you will not often lose much money, if any.
4. The base price is in the $100-250 range that's really kind of inexpensive for good pocket knives. It's not like chasing hard-to-get CRKs, where you're looking at dropping $600-$1,100.

In terms of quality, the Italian Maniago companies - Viper, Fox, Lionsteel, etc., are all making great quality traditionally inspired knives with more modern materials, but the rarity and thrill of the hunt isn't there. But if you want great quality traditional users, hard to go wrong with a CollectorKnives traditional by Lionsteel.

A step up from GEC, Albers is a great value, they're just much harder to get a hold of.

And a step up from that, the traditional folder market for custom knives is generally quite reasonable. For some reason you can get full custom slipjoints of outstanding quality for the same price as a Sebenza.

 

[Ironbut]

If we really want to get down in the weeds, the line for diminishing returns starts with a $15 Opinel #07. They're very good at cutting stuff. That's what knives are for, and anything more than that, whether it's a $75 Case, or a $300 GEC, is only something to make a person happy.

 

[Old Engineer]

I had one knife that I carried for 40 years that did almost everything that I needed a knife to do . I did also have a Fillet Knife because I used to fish . That knife was all that I wanted to afford . We had a family to raise and save for retirement . Sometime after I retired in 2001 our kids started to Gift me knives made by Case and I had basically no choice on what model they would be . Somewhere in that time frame I discovered that I really liked Stag Handled Knives . Eventually I started collecting barlows , because Dad had one , and various patterns and brands and I never wanted to pay what I thought they were worth . In 2014 I tried to go into collecting Barlows and discovered the TC Barlows but could not get one . But I did find some made in Sheffield at prices that I deemed necessary to pay. I also noticed the Chinese market and bought a few of them but gifted them away , even though they were well made , because they Did Not Fit me . Then I was able to Buy the Northfield 77 Barlows so I settled on buying new Northfields . They were a little pricier than Case , but were better made and a had more eye appeal to me . But the little higher prices did not bother me much then . Sometime along the way I decided that I had a few knives that did match up with what I needed for Form & Function . But there are still a few out there that I would still like to get . Like Northfield models that I do not have yet and a couple other Brands that I would like to get . The problem now is my Old Mind is telling me that the Prices now are Way Higher than I think I should pay for another knife that is not as useful and any better made as a couple of old ones that I have . Do I think that the manufacturers are ripping us off ??? Maybe some are !!! But I still need a few more Stag Handled Knives to reach my goal . Notice that I never mentioned the pattern that I needed ? I am way past the point where Form or Function matters in my buying process . I even have a couple Cotton Samplers . Sometimes GECs are priced nice and sometimes not . Case knives seemed to be priced okay .
Now I have just turned into an old guy rambling on .

Harry

 

[mrknife]

dont forget the hype factor. gecs only cost more in these recent years because of the hype, fomo and flipping/trade extorting. some people get the knife in just to take a picture and its out the door again and everyone else has to pay inflated costs. they dont necessarily make a better knife than they did 7 years ago either, in fact some would argue quality has gone down. Case in point, one of my favorite patterns the gec 15, used to be about $60 for the non frills plain ebony spear. but now theyre almost double because of the flipping nonsense that goes on.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I guess where the line for other collectors on form/function vs price actually is. I figured this would be a relatively judgement free place to ask since a lot of us collect higher end, and budget, and everything between.

What maker(s) would you say have the ratio where price to either increased function, or increased form (fit and finish) start to level out, and something more expensive would likely not "substantially" be an improvement. Whatever that means to you.

I am actually starting to wonder if their really is a true line where the point of diminishing practical returns begins for the typical traditional knife enthusiast.
As knife enthusiasts there are many inconsequential desires and preferences that we have which don't really reflect performance.

An Opinel, Mora 511, Buck 110LT.. etc all cost under $30 and offer as much function as most users of traditional knives could ever want, and there are even a few models in this price range from Victorinox who offers the most consistently perfect F&F imaginable.
If that's all a person cares about thet can stop there as most non knife enthusiasts do.
As a knife enthusiast we might say a GEC is worth more than a Case because the F&F can be far superior ( Case is doing pretty great with some lately though ) , and we may prefer their old world pre war patterns / style that few others offer today, but a Case Barlow trapper or Sodbuster is every bit as good of a cutting tool as anything from GEC.

 

[calm]

Anything more expensive than a Rough Ryder regular line. Opinel, MAM, florinox, Joker are good.
Rosecraft, Rough Ryder Reserve are for when you want to splash out

 

[meako]

I had one knife that I carried for 40 years that did almost everything that I needed a knife to do . I did also have a Fillet Knife because I used to fish . That knife was all that I wanted to afford . We had a family to raise and save for retirement . Sometime after I retired in 2001 our kids started to Gift me knives made by Case and I had basically no choice on what model they would be . Somewhere in that time frame I discovered that I really liked Stag Handled Knives . Eventually I started collecting barlows , because Dad had one , and various patterns and brands and I never wanted to pay what I thought they were worth . In 2014 I tried to go into collecting Barlows and discovered the TC Barlows but could not get one . But I did find some made in Sheffield at prices that I deemed necessary to pay. I also noticed the Chinese market and bought a few of them but gifted them away , even though they were well made , because they Did Not Fit me . Then I was able to Buy the Northfield 77 Barlows so I settled on buying new Northfields . They were a little pricier than Case , but were better made and a had more eye appeal to me . But the little higher prices did not bother me much then . Sometime along the way I decided that I had a few knives that did match up with what I needed for Form & Function . But there are still a few out there that I would still like to get . Like Northfield models that I do not have yet and a couple other Brands that I would like to get . The problem now is my Old Mind is telling me that the Prices now are Way Higher than I think I should pay for another knife that is not as useful and any better made as a couple of old ones that I have . Do I think that the manufacturers are ripping us off ??? Maybe some are !!! But I still need a few more Stag Handled Knives to reach my goal . Notice that I never mentioned the pattern that I needed ? I am way past the point where Form or Function matters in my buying process . I even have a couple Cotton Samplers . Sometimes GECs are priced nice and sometimes not . Case knives seemed to be priced okay .
Now I have just turned into an old guy rambling on .

Harry

I hear you Harry....except I'm not in Cotton Sampler mode ...yet..
Seriously though.
In my long standing role as Admistrative Curator and Head Keeper at Happy Acres Porchenberberg Home for The Mentally Disadvantaged ...amongst my duties is the annual behavioural observation study of our pris..err inma....errm guests...Our Residents!
Time and time again the study reveals various traits displayed by traditional knife enthusiasts.
Whilst locked in their padded ce...errr...containment faci...errm..dundg...luxury apartments with expansive views..Some stare at the walls.Some stare at the ceiling. Some gaze through the window.Some rattle the cage bars...most interesting of all are those who wait eagerly by the door hoping the next meal will better than the last and gobbling it up with lusty appetite.*

*Dark almost horrific I know.
Please take comfort in the fact the subjects of these tests bear no resemblance to any actual persons.

 

[Rookie82]

GEC hits a sweet spot of high value for good price, which is why they are so popular. For me, I like the Tuna Valley knives. Premium quality, CM154 steel, natural handle materials with show quality fit/finish. Small runs, and once created they will never be made again. More expensive, but I feel they are worth it.

 

[mac0731]

If we really want to get down in the weeds, the line for diminishing returns starts with a $15 Opinel #07. They're very good at cutting stuff. That's what knives are for, and anything more than that, whether it's a $75 Case, or a $300 GEC, is only something to make a person happy.

GEC hits a sweet spot of high value for good price, which is why they are so popular. For me, I like the Tuna Valley knives. Premium quality, CM154 steel, natural handle materials with show quality fit/finish. Small runs, and once created they will never be made again. More expensive, but I feel they are worth it.

These two are the sort of ideas on why I wanted to start this. It's always interesting to me where the "worth the extra" is, especially in collectors circles. Both are right in their own way, to the poster.

A knife that cuts is all some (a lot) of people need, and they could use one happily. Other people want that high value fit/finish/aesthetic that upper brands include and get the worth there. Myself included.

 

[draggat]

Diminishing returns? I was a bit stumped by this one.

I feel like this is a situation where you're asking a logical question where logic doesn't always apply.

A logical person would buy a few knives and then say, why do I need another? I have all my bases covered. At that point, the diminishing returns effect applies because spending money on another tool that they already have enough of doesn't add any more value. Some of the members here do fit into this group.

An illogical person, like myself, ends up with a few large tool chests jammed packed with knives that, to a non-enthusiest, mostly look about the same, even though I would assure you they all have differences.

Knife collecting for me is almost purely emotional.... The feeling a particular knife evokes is the why and that sort of value doesn't necessarily have a diminishing return.

 

[waynorth]

I collect knives because I want the ones I buy!! Some (many) are frivolous to my life, but I love them, and can afford most(some) of them anyway!! I sell a few to help support my retired lifestyle!! I try to keep my money in North America or Europe!!
I don't consciously Profiteer or flip knives but some of my Antiques have made a few bucks, which helps the fun of collecting. I enjoy trying out different patterns and equating their relative usefulness. I certainly don't use every knife I buy, as throwing that much value away is plainly foolish!!!
Maybe I answered some of the questions implied in the thread's title??? Maybe not!!!???

 

[mph57]

Traditional folders….I use em all, no safe queens. With that being said, Case (or their equivalent) is about $$ as high as I will go. So I guess that’s the price-point of diminishing returns for me. Since I’m using them, light blade rub, slightly off centered blades, and small gaps don’t keep me up at night…don’t even mind buying second-hand.

I must be in the minority here because GECs are near impossible for me to obtain at retail prices and I refuse to pay the $$$ of the secondary market.

Rosecraft…I had to try one…super solid knife for the money.

 

[mac0731]

Diminishing returns? I was a bit stumped by this one.

I feel like this is a situation where you're asking a logical question where logic doesn't always apply.

A logical person would buy a few knives and then say, why do I need another? I have all my bases covered. At that point, the diminishing returns effect applies because spending money on another tool that they already have enough of doesn't add any more value. Some of the members here do fit into this group.

An illogical person, like myself, ends up with a few large tool chests jammed packed with knives that, to a non-enthusiest, mostly look about the same, even though I would assure you they all have differences.

Knife collecting for me is almost purely emotional.... The feeling a particular knife evokes is the why and that sort of value doesn't necessarily have a diminishing return.

Yeah I guess in my mind it's where the logic ends vs where the emotional purchase begins, if that makes sense. For me I can buy a GEC or Albers and know it's not going to be necessarily a "better" (functionally) blade (imo, ymmv, etc) than some other less expensive knives. I buy them because I enjoy something about it outside that realm of function or utility. I'm just curious where that point lays with others. Some people can look at a $15 Opinel and say that's all I'd need, others can logically go much higher and say "this is what I need it's better because x,y,z", and still make other purchases that don't even get the "I need this argument", it becomes an "I want this" situation lol.

I collect knives because I want the ones I buy!! Some (many) are frivolous to my life, but I love them, and can afford most(some) of them anyway!! I sell a few to help support my retired lifestyle!! I try to keep my money in North America or Europe!!
I don't consciously Profiteer or flip knives but some of my Antiques have made a few bucks, which helps the fun of collecting. I enjoy trying out different patterns and equating their relative usefulness. I certainly don't use every knife I buy, as throwing that much value away is plainly foolish!!!
Maybe I answered some of the questions implied in the thread's title??? Maybe not!!!???

Agree. As well put above, trying to apply logic to emotional things sometimes. I definitely think there is a tax to supporting North American/Euro makers in most spaces. I try to keep a majority of at least half of my purchases in the US but I like to know what else is out there. That new gateway Barlow for instance was IMO a worthy purchase for the collection to get to check out the maker at a better (for me) cost of entry.

Traditional folders….I use em all, no safe queens. With that being said, Case (or their equivalent) is about $$ as high as I will go. So I guess that’s the price-point of diminishing returns for me. Since I’m using them, light blade rub, slightly off centered blades, and small gaps don’t keep me up at night…don’t even mind buying second-hand.

I must be in the minority here because GECs are near impossible for me to obtain at retail prices and I refuse to pay the $$$ of the secondary market.

Rosecraft…I had to try one…super solid knife for the money.

I've found joining some groups with alerts on drops to be a huge help getting GEC drops, if that's something you'd want to try to catch. I've gotten picky even with my users now which kinda stinks since I noticed things now I wouldn't have before lol.