Dirk/Dagger Legalities

S

SM24

Joined
Mar 13, 2002
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Today, I had an email conversation with a noted knife authority (who appears as an expert witness in some knife-related court cases.) I asked him about the legality of carry a couple of fixed-blade knives concealed in Washington state. I actually live in Oregon, but go to Washington fairly frequently. The knives in question are the CRKT Polkowski/Kasper Companion and Benchmade Nimravus (full size.) Both states have very similar concealed weapons statutes which forbid concealed carry of "dirks or daggers."

It was his opinion that both these knives were dirks, and therefore illegal to carry concealed in OR and WA. This was based on them looking like they were made for stabbing, as opposed to just being cutting tools. Blade length was not an issue. I guess I can see his point, but I was under the general impression that a knife must be double-edged to qualify as a dirk or dagger.

His opinion also seemed to be in direct conflict with that of another noted knife authority with whom I recently spoke.

Anyone on the forum from OR or WA have any ideas? Have you heard of people getting busted for similar concealed fixed blades in these states? What about residents of other states with similar dagger/dirk prohibitions?

I realize this is a fairly narrow question, but this guy seems to indicate that very broad definitions of dirks/daggers are applied to knives I certainly didn't consider illegal for concealed carry under the law.
 
SM24:

I strongly feel that anyone who carries knives should be familiar with the laws in their area. However, the potential legal liability is just too great to rely on second hand info. Fortunately, I believe all states make that info available on the web.

California prohibits concealed carry of dirks and daggers. Section 12020 of the Penal Code says:

"(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position."

Thus, "dirk or dagger" includes:

1) any fixed blade
2) any opened folder
3) anything else that is capable of "ready use" as a stabbing weapon

It doesn't matter whether the item is made for stabbing, but only whether it is CAPABLE of stabbing.

You should never assume that the law is well written, that it has any common sense, or that it doesn't prohibit activities which may seem perfectly harmless to most reasonable people.

Don't take chances! Look it up!

miguel
 
...I did look it up.

In Oregon, at least, there is no prohibition against carrying fixed blades concealed, only "dirks and daggers" specifically. The problem is then what the law, or rather, the courts, will consider a dirk or dagger. Clearly, this will vary. Like I said, I had always believed a dagger or dirk to be double edged, this being the most clear-cut, objective definition, as opposed to something that "could be used for stabbing" (that covers virtually all knives, and that is NOT what the Oregon statute says or intends.) But not everyone agrees.

SM24
 
I believe some Scottish dirks are single edged. More to the point the statute won't give you the answer you seek. You need to find out how the courts in Washington and Oregon have interpreted the statute i.e. the case law. If you have a friend whose a lawyer maybe you could take them out for drinks in exchange for some quick and dirty research. Good luck.
Best regards
Argyll
 
As usual, New Jersey seems to lead the way in obfuscation. Dirks and daggers are illegal but there is no definition accepted as to what is a dirk or dagger (same with gravity knife - my AFCK can be flipped open if I hold it by the blade). The same fog is drawn over billies, blackjacks, saps .....
My personal feeling is "Do you want to be the test case?" I don't, but I'll watch with great interest anyone who does.
For New Jerseyites I recommend purchasing a copy of "Nappen II" by Paul Nappen, a citizen-friendly lawyer. He does an amazing job of covering the legalities known and suspected of virtually all weapons from machine guns to blow guns.
 
Actually, the way the law is written would criminalize the Cross pen I carry in my shirt pocket (ever see "Casino"?).

r.j., the author's name is Evan Nappen. I don't have the book, but have browsed through it in the gun shop. I actually mailed Mr Nappen and asked him for some business cards. I keep one in my wallet, as well as at home.
 
Thanks RH - Paul was a guy I went to high school with. Brain fart.
The book does raise the "per se" question as to intent, and whether it is up to you or the authorities to prove there was a nefarious aspect to your possession. Either way it supposes you are in court.
Does anyone know how actors deal with this? Any theatre production of Shakespeare has daggers and dirks galore all over the place; and the text actually refers to them as such. Also, what about materials? If it's wood is it still a dagger or does it become a club? If it's rubber?
My guess is again: try it and become the test case. And let us know.
 
I also watch with great interest these "test cases"...but I have no desire to become one.
Hence, all the questions and discussion.
 
Most states have exclusion clauses for carrying for and use in a legitimate theatrical production.
 
Consider WHY someone would run afoul of the law, regarding a dirk or a dagger.

First, possibly a LEO doesn't like something about the way someone looks, and so upon searching the person the LEO finds an ambiguous device which the LEO CAN interpret as a dirk or a dagger, and because the person carried it concealed, it confirms the LEO's initial assessment and subsequent judgements regarding the suspect.
In this case, in the state of Oregon, the concealed nature of the device has made it a liability to the person carrying it.
A person carrying such a device concealed might want to take care with his appearance and behavior so as not to excite the interests of LEO's.

Secondly, obvious intent as a weapon can serve to make a dirk a dirk and a dagger a dagger.
Regardless of design, and regardless of what the law specifies, how one carries a knife, concealed or unconcealed, and where and under what circumstances, implies a class or type of intent.
A person who prosecutes the law, such as a District Attorney, will get a lot of mileage out of intent if he has the interest to do so.

Third, a dirk or a dagger, irrespective of the number of edges, has a point designed for stabbing.
One could carry an ice pick or a machinist's awl and argue that it has no edges.
However should a person carry either of these concealed, for self defense or otherwise, and use it as a weapon, the legal system will address it with prejudice.

Fourth, I have seen a well known forum moderator carrying a "fighting" knife in an upside-down sheath, in plain view of anyone who has eyes for these things.
As a respected member of the local community and the law enforcement community, he could do so without any negative consequences.
He satisfied the law in every respect.
However, a transient farm worker or an obnoxious tourist carrying a "fighting" knife in this manner might find himself in trouble.

So, in conclusion, I think social context, discretion, attitude and judgement enter into this as much as does the local state's laws.
 
Now Ken, who might that "well known" forum moderator be...?:D

Good thoughts here from those responding.

Study your local state laws on the subject and make a copy so you have it handy. Another smart move is to make an appointment with your local DA and ask him/her if they'd prosecute you for carrying Knife A (bring photo or the knife...but bring the knife in a box).

Oregon, for example, recently broadened the carry of bladeware quite a bit. This specifically due to the number of folks getting dinged carrying knives that didn't come close to meeting the dirk/dagger legal definitions. The new wording makes it very clear as to what a dirk / dagger is considered to be...and I'm in agreement that a better definition was necessary and will be way helpful to all involved.

Cops and military members can carry dirks or daggers in conjunction with their duty (and in conjunction with their departments' or units' policies, procedures, and regulations). Reserve / National Guard personnel can likewise carry but only enroute, during, or returning from their active duty for training periods...AND unit regulations.

As I recall the dirk is now defined as having a triangular blade and being of a specific blade length...and daggers are double-edged regardless of point design.

LEOs can and will make the initial call but it will be the DA who will review the report, ask to see the knife, and then make a decision as to whether or not to prosecute. Clearly the more educated an LEO is about such knives the better decisions he or she can make on the street. Given knife education for LEOs is often way limited (if at all) it remains best for the folk considering to carry one over another to do their homework beforehand.

As for "knife experts" and "consultants"...we're a dime a dozen anymore:)

Do your own work and no on can touch you:D
 
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