Disappointed with my Pioneer11.....

S

shivey

Joined
Sep 5, 1999
Messages
439
After anxiously anticipating the arrival
of my new Pioneer II, I was saddened to find
the knife to be unacceptable, and returned
it (my first knife return - and I've
bought several over the net). The cutting
edge had a small chip out of it and there
was a very noticeable grind irregularity on
the clip side of the blade. Plus, I can't
tolerate blade-play on a higher end production knife, and the action was
extremely gritty. I liberally applied Tuff-
Glide to the pivot - let it set up - then
snapped it open hard about 30 times. No
improvement. Since I read mostly raves about
the Pioneer on the Forum, was my knife just
a quality control glitch?



------------------
shivey
 
Shivey,

I think you made the right decision.
I to have had bad results with this brand knife. sent a brand new PioneerII into REKAT
supposedly according to Bob their was nothing wrong with it. But,it had a slight up and down blade movement. unacceptable!
So, Bob hand picked another, told me over the phone that this one locked up solid. when I recieved it yeah, it locked up alright but the edge sucked! about 1/6 grind on one side and 1/8 on the other. Sent it back to the original vendor with a info concerning the discrepancies.
It's not just this knife manufacture they all have their bad days I have a brand new Mini Socom that when you closed the blade about 1/4 inch from the tip the edge would deform from hitting the inside of the handle.
sent it back.
bad luck NO. just poor quality control, the more junk that the consumer accepts the more it will accepted!
SEND IT BACK!
 
Texbaz - I HEAR ya! Misery loves company,
so I guess I'm glad to hear I'm not the only
unlucky ^&**% out there. I've had some great
luck with other makers, particularly BM and
Kershaw. But I'm trying to cull out my
collection of liner-locks and lock-backs
in favor of the newer locks. I've sold about
15 knives the past 2 weeks, keeping only
the ones I can't part with. So, understandably, I was - and still am - excited about the rolling-lock. I told my
vendor he could replace the Pioneer if,
indeed, he had one free of defects....which
I don't think is too much to require of a
$100 knife! I won't spend the $500 for a
custom cause I use my knives.
I have a BM 710 on order, and would probably
buy a Carnivour, IF REKAT will show me a
Pioneer worth the money. But like your
problem with the defective pricey MT, I think
we're paying enough money to demand quality,
and not compromise our standards for an
acceptable product. I read about guys
disassembling their new knives and working
on them with the Dremel, or putting a new
edge on them...I WON'T do it. It should've
come perfect in the box! Sorry if I rant.

------------------
shivey
 
The early Pioneers had some flakey QC, but I have heard nothing but accolades from people who have needed REKAT customer service. They aren't the slickest production knives in the world, but they are great designs and very strong once you get one that is tight enough for you. They are great knives for those who value function above all else. I recently purchased a Pioneer II, and it is flawless. My Sifu is brilliant as well.

The actions do get smoother. I would put the break-in period closer to a thousand openings than 300 though. The play issue is a bummer though. My four Pioneers, Crawford Carni, and Sifu are all very solid and tight.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 29 October 1999).]
 
I have an early Pioneer which I have had for a while now.

When I first received it, I was a bit disappointed that the G-10 had some marks on it and that it was less than cosmetically perfect.

The lock, however, has never failed, and Bob Taylor even sent me an extra spring in case of that eventuality.

I felt that, though new, the blade edge needed a bit of touch up (and it was WORK on the Sharpmaker), but once that was accomplished, it took a very good edge.

I will admit that the ball detent on these early models leaves a bit to be desired, as mine doesn't hold closed strongly.

Still, when I reach for a hard use knife, the Pioneer is one of the first to come to hand. I am not afraid of hurting this knife (or myself with it). And isn't that what it really boils down to with this kind of knife?

Blues

------------------
Live Free or Die


 
Steve, I sent the Pioneer back to the vendor
(a BF sponsor) for replacement or credit.
Maybe I SHOULD'VE sent it to REKAT, that
did'nt occur to me. And I agree with your
comment about the knife's potential for
serving those who prefer function above all
else. Even though I feel $100>or- should buy
a "pretty" knife as well as a functional
one, I can overlook the Pioneer's aesthetical
shortcomings for the sake of owning and
using the rolling lock - with which I am,
indeed, impressed. I kinda doubt you would
own 4 Pioneers if they were liner-locks. I
recently bought the full size M2 Stryker,NIB,
from a BF member, for $9 less than I paid
for the REKAT. The knife is perfect in every
respect; a truly great production knife,
albeit, a liner-lock. I believe the future
in the knives we both love, lies in the
newer lock technology. So I'm really not
bashing REKAT, I just need a rolling lock
that really locks up tight, like yours do.
And by the way, you say your Sifu locks up
tight, 0 blade-play? That, in itself, is
remarkable for a blade that large. I wonder
if the axis lock could support a blade that
large and heavy? I, personally, don't care
for a folder that large...but it certainly
does speak loudly for the rolling lock.




------------------
shivey
 
I bought a Pioneer 2nd at the Blade Show West from the REKAT booth. It had a bit of blade wobble and was dull. But I paid only fifty bucks for it and when I got home, I put thread lock on the appropriate spots, tightened the pivot just so and the blade wobble disappeared. It took a while to get the edge on it, but now it is as it was meant to be, one hell for stout work knife. I would like to see this blade flat ground, but that just happens to be my favorite grind.
 
My pioneer II tanto came with a good edge and it seems to have a higher hollow grind than some others that I've seen.It does cut good and the ATS performs good.It is not a fancy flicker.It is a heavy duty cutting tool and works great for that.I have that little bit of up and down blade play too(so does my Axis lock).I believe it's just the nature of the beast.The things that bothered me were the handle fit and the gritty action.I did my own fine tuning on these things and now it is much better to me.
$100.00 may seem like alot for a knife but it won't get you a pefect knife,no matter who makes it.
scott w
 
Scott, you said " $100 may seem like alot
for a knife, but it won't get you a perfect
knife, no matter who makes it". I think
you've cut to the gist of this thread.
Now, mind you, I'm considering my standards
for perfection as pertains to production
knives only. Having said that, I contend
that a new $100 knife should have 0 blade-
play, good G10(or whatever) to metal fit,
a very sharp edge, quality materials to
promise durability, and pleasing cosmetics.
I've owned several "perfect" (subjective)
folders that possessed all these qualities.
That's good BANG for your C-note. Why settle
for less? I guess in order to own a rolling
lock, I may have to. Oh yeah, and if the
Axis I've ordered comes to me with blade-
play...it's going back.

------------------
shivey
 
shivey
Your right a hundred dollar folder should come with all those qualities you've mentioned,but the fact is,that paying $100.00 for a production folder is'nt going to get you custom quality,fit and finish.These fit and finish features will cost you more.Folders have to have some play or they won't work right.I most cases a folder with an adjustable pivot can be cured of blade wobble.My pioneer has very little.Keep in mind that those teflon? washers absorb some of the play too.
scott w
 
REKAT knives are exemplary for design, brute strength, and utility. Quality control, on the other hand, is about as bad as I've seen at the high end of the cutlery marketplace. We've had a higher return rate on REKAT products by far than any other brand we sell. If I could give REKAT one suggestion it would be to work hard on improving quality control. They are great designs that deserve top drawer quality control. Take care.

------------------
Fred
Knife Outlet
http://www.knifeoutlet.com


 
"They are great designs that deserve top
drawer quality control." Good post, Fred.
You said it all.
One should'nt have to disassemble a NEW
higher end knife, and shorten a spring,
Dremel the pivot, etc., to make that knife
acceptable.
Tom Pilotti

------------------
shivey
 
I went to the NYCKS intent on getting a WKC RTAK OR a REKAT pioneer or carnivour. I was so disappointed in the REKATS. I really wanted one from all I've 'heard' here, but the differences in QC from one pioneer to the other set off alarm bells in my mind. I must have gone back to the table 10 or 15 times 'cause I wanted it so bad, but then couldn't rationalize 'settling' for something that cost THAT much $. It is a shame, it is a heck of a knife, but I kept thinking "if they let them out of the door this way, what else is wrong?"
I could be completely wrong, this is no way a slander of REKAT, just my experience. Maybe it is like buying a harley in the 70's...you bought it, took it home and immediatly started working on it.
I sincerely hope they get the QC straightened out...I still really want one.
PS the RTAK was way huge...got a US Marshall instead. Funny, it didn't look that big in the magazine!

[This message has been edited by Ebbtide (edited 10 November 1999).]
 
$100 knife should not need customising to make it really good. No offense intended to REKAT but my Benchmades and Spydies don't need work. I agree with EbbTide.. the quality control seems pretty poor. The lock is really hot stuff from what I've seen.
But I cannot see buying a knife ONLY for the lock when the rest of the knife seems to need immediate fixing...and that seems to be the case with others whom own this product..
I too have fondled but held off from buying.
 
I hope I'm not jinxing myself, but my Carnivore has been great. It wasn't very smooth on opening but I figured that was in the nature of the lock since the rolling laock was always applying force to the back of the blade. I have heard people say this got better as it wore in. I figured by polishing the back of the blade I was accelerating the wearing in process. I also noticed when I took it apart that the spring was very long. I wasn't having any problems with the spring hanging up, but I figured that I would cut it shorten it while I had the knife apart. My Carnivore is almost the smoothest opening knife I have. And it locks up great. I have heard some complaints about vertical blade play from others. My Carnivore was acceptable when I got it, I just wanted to tweak it out. Overall, I have to say that this is my favorite production knife. The handle is incredibly ergonomic, The recurve blade kicks a$$. And the rolling lock is superb. While I have heard of some quality control issues, I also have heard nothing but praise for their customer service. If I'm not mistaken people were saying the same thing about Benchmade not too long ago.

------------------
-Dennis


 
My new Pioneer II is without flaws, though it is not as slickly made as say a Benchmade 710. I think, in the final analysis, one pays for value, and there are lots of different kinds of value. I consider the design of the Pioneer to be high in value apart from how nicely it is finished. It is compact, very comfortable, very strong, very reliable, and it works really well as a cutting tool. All values that make it a competitive product in my opinion.
 
All points are well taken. But for those of
us who would like to own a rolling lock
knife, but feel that quality is a cost-
prohibiting factor, maybe REKAT could do
a little better. Of course they don't have
to - perhaps they're perfectly happy with
their present level of sales in which case
I wish them every success! But it does'nt
seem too costly to me (what do I know?) to
polish the back of the blade at the factory,
ensure proper spring-length, smooth the
edges of the G-10, and put a nice sharp
edge on every knife. They ARE in direct
competition with BM, MT, higher-end Kershaws,
MOD, etc.. I dunno...maybe Bob could respond.

------------------
Tom Pilotti
 
I've handled about 10 differant REKATs, (not counting all the Sifu's I messed with), and I've had nary a problem with any of them.

For the price you are paying, with the materials involved, you are getting one hell of a value.

Regarding the BM's and Spyderco's not having problems, let me tell you something: REKAT's aren't Lockbacks with Zytel handles. They have G10, they have ATS-34 blades with great heat treats and a great finish, and they have the Rolling lock which alone makes a huge difference between the models.

If you ever have a problem with a REKAT, Bob will be more than happy for you to send it back. On the few times that I've been on the phone with him and he's had a warranty problem on the other line, he's been more than willing to try to make things right.

So, what the argument here?

Poor QC? Ok, no problem, theres always room for improvement.
Price? Nope, they are already a great value
Fit and finish? Room for improvement, but they are improving, because I've seen them get better.
Designs? Nope, they are great and only getting better.

If you have a problem with your knife, send it back and get it fixed. But if you open it up and try to play doctor yourself, you are asking for a voided warranty because you are only going to make things worse.

Folks, they can't make changes if you go in there and make your own "fixes", because they won't be able to tell what you've done from what's wrong. The spring is as long as it is for a reason - your safety. You cut down the spring and the knife is either going to open in your pocket, or it's going to be considered a "gravity knife" when some police officer frisks you and you are going to go to jail. REKAT puts a lot of thought into their knives, nothing is like it is without a reason.

So, when in doubt, send it back. End of story.

Spark

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 13 November 1999).]
 
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