Discussion. Forging VS Stock Removal

DEllis

DEllis

Part Time Steel Basher
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Messages
966
I am not wanting this to turn into a urinating for distance contest, so let's try to keep this civil:)

In another thread, a comment was made to the effect that there is no reason for forging blades with the availability of modern steels. In my experience, that is a misinformed statement for several reasons, and I hope this thread will increase the understanding of the topic.

One big advantage to forging, in my opinion, is the ability to make blades with much more curvature with narrower stock. For example, if you want to make a kukri by stock removal, you may need to start out with a 5 inch wide(just an example, you need enough to include all the contours of the finished blade) bar of steel. By forging to shape, the same blade can be with bar stock slightly narrower than the widest point of the finished blade.

Another, related benefit, is the efficient use of steel. I can forge a 1.5" wide bowie, 9 inch clip point blade, with a 5 inch narrow tang out of a 1/4" bar of steel 1 1/4" wide x 10 inches long. The minimum size for a stock removal of the same size would be 1.5"x 14"

And, of course, there is no other way to make Damascus steel, which is reason enough to have a forge handy:D

Thoughts?

Darcy:)
 
If you wanna be a blacksmith then forge your knife

If you do not wanna be a blacksmith then grind.
 
I cannot think of too many Makers that can stock-remove the kind of distal-taper that can be forged into a blade......nothing like a 3/8" thick spine forged down to a needle-point and virtual 'zero-edge', clip, too, along with proper tang 'placement' and a slight blade-heavy balance. :cool:
 
There is a third category beyond the forged/stock removal categories. It's the category I belong in - the "who gives a sh*t" category. As soon as this thread was started it was a pissing contest (rather, another of the many pissing contests about this topic). No one wins and some become angry. So, personally, that's why I don't give a sh*t about which method is used. All I care about is whether I like the knife or not.:)
 
Last edited:
If you've never used a knife forged by a talented bladesmith then of course you'd think stock removal is the best way to go.

On the flip side I've handled some poor knives that were forged it depends on the bladesmith.

Nothing against stock removal either . They both have their place . It depends on the maker the steel the heat treat all that .

The forged knives I do own do perform better than stock removal knives in the same steel ,I'll go a step further the forged knives I own in even simple carbon steels some outperform modern "super steels" .

It depends on the smith and the maker really . Cost is another thing a forged blade from a well known smith look at the cost say Winkler for example .

I begged Daniel and begged Daniel and even offered him everything I could think of for a slot on his forged knives . He has a 10 year or 8 year backlog and look at the prices .
The Winkler 2 is the stock removal so you get the same heat treat just not forged .
 
DEllis said:
there is no reason for forging blades with the availability of modern steels.
Click to expand...

Going by that logic, there's no reason make a knife with the availability of so many great production knives.

If you like forging, Forge. If you like grinding, grind.

I agree. An attempt at starting a match, at best.
 
Last edited:
there is no vs., imo. This ain't politics!
 
Lorien said:
there is no vs., imo. This ain't politics!
Click to expand...

Agreed, I was looking for a discussion on the actual benefits of forging as an addition to stock removal. My bad on the poor wording. Obviously most forged blades also require stock removal in the process of making them.
I was trying to provide a thread to educate and enlighten, not argue. There are plenty of those already.

SVTFreak, I believe you misinterpret my intentions. Not sure why this topic should cause hostility. Are we incapable of mature discussion on the merits of different techniques?

Darcy
 
betzner said:
There is a third category beyond the forged/stock removal categories. It's the category I belong in - the "who gives a sh*t" category. As soon as this thread was started it was a pissing contest (rather, another of the many pissing contests about this topic). No one wins and some become angry. So, personally, that's why I don't give a sh*t about which method is used. All I care about is whether I like the knife or not.:)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply, I respectfully disagree that is was a "pissing contest" from the start, that was not my intention at all. There are good reasons for forging(several of which I stated in my first post) and also good reasons to not forge certain blades.

An example of stock removal being more appropriate(at least for me) is when I make a slip joint. There is nothing to be gained from me smashing a thin bar of precision ground steel with a hammer. I use PG steel for those as it is simpler to keep everything parallel and straight without the internal stresses that hammer blows tend to cause. Also, when I am starting with 3/32" stock, there is not a lot of metal to grind away anyhow.

I was looking for other positive reasons for using either method from those with more experience that me. I've been doing this for a while(about 20 years), but I don't know everything.

I was of the impression that a forum is to improve overall knowledge by the sheer size of the pool of experience of it's members, no?

Darcy:)

edited to add: I was looking more for the positives of either method from a makers perspective. As a collector, I can see you would be interested in the final product first and foremost, but the steps that get to that point are more what I am focussed on as a maker.
 
Last edited:
I like to forge because by forging I can use scrap steel like 5160 that is one of my favourite carbon steel. I like it so much but the easy way to obtain that steel is to buy old truck spring made of 15mm thick leafs. So I have to forge it.
If I use another carbon like O2 i prefer to obtain blades by stock removal.

Talking about forging I think that it's necessary to distinguish between forging by hammer and anvil, power-hammer or press:)

However I don't know if a forged blade is better than a removed, but i think, for me, that by forging a man can give to the steel a part of this heart and soul.
 
Last edited:
Chefget said:
How about in terms of cutting?

-Mcihael
Click to expand...

It is generally understood that heat treating and edge geometry are the keys to cutting performance. Method of shaping not much of a factor in most cases.
I should add, that this is where the bulk of the argument arises, and short of massive scientific testing from unbiased sources, we are not likely to solve that question here.
Darcy
 
For me, in terms of cutting, the blade of an experienced mastersmith could be superior than a blade made by removing for a question of grain thickness. But I think that it's very difficult to notice the difference simply using a knife.
 
DEllis said:
I am not wanting this to turn into a urinating for distance contest, so let's try to keep this civil:)

In another thread, a comment was made to the effect that there is no reason for forging blades with the availability of modern steels. In my experience, that is a misinformed statement for several reasons, and I hope this thread will increase the understanding of the topic.

One big advantage to forging, in my opinion, is the ability to make blades with much more curvature with narrower stock. For example, if you want to make a kukri by stock removal, you may need to start out with a 5 inch wide(just an example, you need enough to include all the contours of the finished blade) bar of steel. By forging to shape, the same blade can be with bar stock slightly narrower than the widest point of the finished blade.

Another, related benefit, is the efficient use of steel. I can forge a 1.5" wide bowie, 9 inch clip point blade, with a 5 inch narrow tang out of a 1/4" bar of steel 1 1/4" wide x 10 inches long. The minimum size for a stock removal of the same size would be 1.5"x 14"

And, of course, there is no other way to make Damascus steel, which is reason enough to have a forge handy:D

Thoughts?

Darcy:)
Click to expand...

But............. experienced /in stock removal / knivemaker will make 5 knives while you still forging first one :) And I can bye damascus , even stainless one and make knive with stock removal :D

But I agree with most of what you wrote :thumbup:
 
DEllis said:
Thanks for the reply, I respectfully disagree that is was a "pissing contest" from the start, that was not my intention at all. There are good reasons for forging(several of which I stated in my first post) and also good reasons to not forge certain blades.

An example of stock removal being more appropriate(at least for me) is when I make a slip joint. There is nothing to be gained from me smashing a thin bar of precision ground steel with a hammer. I use PG steel for those as it is simpler to keep everything parallel and straight without the internal stresses that hammer blows tend to cause. Also, when I am starting with 3/32" stock, there is not a lot of metal to grind away anyhow.

I was looking for other positive reasons for using either method from those with more experience that me. I've been doing this for a while(about 20 years), but I don't know everything.

I was of the impression that a forum is to improve overall knowledge by the sheer size of the pool of experience of it's members, no?

Darcy:)

edited to add: I was looking more for the positives of either method from a makers perspective. As a collector, I can see you would be interested in the final product first and foremost, but the steps that get to that point are more what I am focussed on as a maker.
Click to expand...

Sorry, because I did not mean to infer you were trying to create dissention. It's just that this is a subject that has been batted around so often, it invariably turns into such a contest, even when not the original intent, which I believe was an honorable one.
 
It should be mentioned here that there are a lot more ways to screw up a blade by forging it than by grinding it, and one should never take for granted the premise that a forged blade will outperform a stock-removal blade. I've seen plenty of over-heated, de-carbed or coarse-grained knives made by amateur bladesmiths that would fail to keep up with even a cheap stainless factory knife in the toughness and edge retention categories.

I like to forge my blades because it gives me more control over the dimensional aspects of my work while also allowing me to control the full range of thermal cycles, which, if applied properly, can indeed help make an extremely high-performance blade - but I will never make outright claims about the superiority of one method of manufacture over another.
 
I make most of my blades by stock removal mainly because it is easier for me to keep things centered and parallel. I do enjoy forging however and plan to get back into it when possible. My biggest problem is cleaning and squaring up the blade well after forging. I'll figure that out with a little more practice. I think Wulf has touched on a good point. Assuming the bladesmith is using good technique and heat control, the forging operation does allow for the opportunity to thermal cycle the steel as he works which can be added benefit compared to a purely stock removal knife.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top