Discussion on frame handles

[primos]

I was asked in another thread regarding a Bowie I made with a frame handle, to explain a bit about the whole frame handle concept. I decided to make a separate thread for discussion. This way I can give my point of view and others can chime in, and we won't get off topic in the original thread.

In a nutshell, the end result of using a frame handle is a hidden tang knife that looks like a full tang knife. It is not a way to be deceitful. There are valid reasons to use it. First, here is my feeble attempt at an artist's rendering of what a frame handle is:

A frame is made in the final shape of the desired handle for the knife. An area is cut or milled out to fit the tang. The handle material is attached to the frame, then the frame is affixed to the knife. In the picture you can see 5 spots that represent holes in the handle material.

The 4 outer holes are for pins to affix the handle material to the frame. A bonding agent is used as well, but it's primary purpose is to seal the joint. The pins are what creates a mechanical bond. The 5th hole (in the center) is for placing a pin to affix the handle to the tang. Again, a bonding agent is used, but the pin creates a mechanical bond.

As far as the reasoning behind using a frame handle, I can't think of a functional benefit. Perhaps other makers can chime in with that. Here's my reasoning:

I had a piece of ivory which was about 3" wide, 4 1/2" long, and 1/4" thick. I drew a center line down the length if the ivory, then drew and cut out two slabs in the shape of my desired handle. Some quick math let's you know that when the two pieces are put together I would end up with a handle that is approximately 1/2" thick -- not quite thick enough for this knife. So by creating a frame, and attaching the scales/slabs to that, I end up with a wider handle and a knife that looks like a full tang.

So, why not just make a full tang knife to begin with? There would be no way to get the guard an ferrule on. That's one of things I love so much about hidden tang knives. There is virtually no limit to what you can do design-wise regarding the guard and handle.

Now, I leave this open for further comments. Hopefully some other makers can touch on some things that I may have missed.

 

[Wulf]

Personally, I love the look of a well done frame handle. The frame itself can be embellished with filework, texture, or inlays to make a bold impression.

I remember having seen some knives by Tim Hancock that featured this method of construction. They had been executed with great precision and they looked fantastic.

Here are photos of two such knives currently featured on the Nordic Knives website

And here's one by Burt Foster (from his website):

 

[Burchtree]

Jason Cutter just did a pictorial on making one his knives and it's a frame handle. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=290265

 

[Bailey Bradshaw]

Wonderful execition on your frame handle Terry!

There are two reasons to use a frame handle. Terry pointed out the first, that the guard wouldn't fit over the handle. The other is if you want a non-corroding handle. A full tang carbon steel knife has the risk of getting rust around the perimeter of the handle. The answer is to "frame" or "wrap" the tang with something like nickel silver or stainless steel. This prevents dirrect contact with a tang that will rust.

One of the side benefits is the ability to make almost any handle shape.

Terry is displaying a fantastic job of fitting and finishing the frame on this bowie. Great workmanship to say the least.

 

[Joss]

Originally posted by primos
So, why not just make a full tang knife to begin with? There would be no way to get the guard an ferrule on.

Interestingly enough, there was a maker at the ABS show (I can't remember his name right now - he was set up on the other side of the aisle from Don Fogg) who did such a full tang knife. He fitted the guard first on a narrow tang and then forged the tang, being careful to keep the blade cool. But that's pushing it...

Terry - have you considered shaping the tang with a hook to add even more strength to the frame? It's probably overkill... I have also seen some knives like that with a screw going through the butt instead of the 5th pin.

Quick question: does the 2 branches of the frame fit inside the ferrule, or do they butt against it?

Thanks. I'm very impressed by how much care went into fitting those pieces together... Wow... And that's for a portion which will never be seen....

JD

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Originally posted by primos
As far as the reasoning behind using a frame handle, I can't think of a functional benefit. Perhaps other makers can chime in with that. Here's my reasoning:

I had a piece of ivory which was about 3" wide, 4 1/2" long, and 1/4" thick. I drew a center line down the length if the ivory, then drew and cut out two slabs in the shape of my desired handle. Some quick math let's you know that when the two pieces are put together I would end up with a handle that is approximately 1/2" thick -- not quite thick enough for this knife. So by creating a frame, and attaching the scales/slabs to that, I end up with a wider handle and a knife that looks like a full tang.

It looks to me like you have found a functional benefit to the frame handle.

 

[J. Shorter]

Joss, I believe the maker to which you refer is Rik Palm, He does some real intersting work.
Jerry

 

[Joss]

Originally posted by J. Shorter
Joss, I believe the maker to which you refer is Rik Palm, He does some real intersting work.

Yep, that's it. He had some very, very nice stuff.

 

[Daniel Koster]

Originally posted by Joss
Terry - have you considered shaping the tang with a hook to add even more strength to the frame?

I was thinking along a similar vein...

What about adding bulb to the end of the tang? You have to mill the handle pieces anyway, might as well mill a bulb and then you'd have a mechanical lock that would not need any epoxy. Even better, screws instead of pins - for disassembling.

Dan

 

[primos]

You can do it that way. I believe the term is a key slot or keyed slot -- something like that. I don't do them that way because I don't build the handle "around" the tang, whether it's a plain mortised tang handle or the frame handle.

I create a snug mortise and slide the tang down into the handle. You wouldn't be able to do that with the keyed type slot. With at least one pin or bolt going through the tang, that handle "ain't" going anywhere. But that's just the way I do it. With my opinion and a $1.50 you might be able to get a cup of coffee at the local truck stop.

I certainly don't see anything wrong with it, and you can bet if I thought it was necessary, I'd be doing it.

 

[Bailey Bradshaw]

I have made a few knives with keyed tangs. It is a real pain in the behind to do, and they don't offer any adition in strength where you need it. A proper fit like on Terry's knife is just as good IMO. The issue is not the tang sliding out of the frame, but more from side or twisting pressure. A keyed tang wouldn't resist any more of this type of pressure than a straight tang.

I have fitted the tang into a handle frame, and after the guard was installed, hard soldered the frame to the tang. I like making framed tangs this way, as the tang and frame feel more solid (that may be my imagination).

The nice feature about Terry's knife is he can pin the scales to the frame, finish the edges and then install the handle on the knife and put the final pin in. That makes finishing the handle easier without worry of scratching the other parts of the knife.

 

[Joss]

All that makes sense. Other question: would it make sense to pin the knife verticaly, i.e., pinning through the top and bottom of the frame rather than through the more fragile handle material?

JD

 

[Daniel Koster]

Bailey and Terry - what you guys said makes perfect sense. Really like it. Being able to make the handle slabs without fear of ruining the handle is a big plus in my way of working.

One more question: does this kind of work demand a mill?

(sorry for turning the custom forum into a shoptalk discussion - promise no more questions...)

 

[Bailey Bradshaw]

No, a mill is nice to have, but you can do a good job with a hack saw and good files with a little patience.

 

[primos]

That's right. I didn't use my mill. I traced the tang on the frame, and drilled a 1/4" hole where the end of the slot would be. Then I just cut the thing out on my bandsaw. Very quick and easy. Any rough spots are easily smoothed out with a file.

Joss, I don't think drilling vertically through the tang would be a good idea. Seems like it would weaken the tang to me.

 

[Daniel Koster]

Not sure I quite understand your suggestions...are you drilling the tang first and then cutting the handle in half? Or vice versa?

What other mechanical methods are there to fix the handle (no epoxy needed)? (either stick or full tang)

I know you can just use corby screws, etc. but I'm wondering if there are others that are a bit nicer...short of making your own screws.

I really like the idea of being able to take it apart. I keep looking at Terry's pic over and over again...fills the mind with ideas...!

 

[primos]

Originally posted by pendentive
Not sure I quite understand your suggestions...are you drilling the tang first and then cutting the handle in half? Or vice versa?

Dan,
Here's a very quick image of what I was talking about. Didn't have much time because I'm getting everything ready to leave for the show tomorrow.

I traced the tang on the frame, and drilled a 1/4" hole where the end of the slot would be. The part with the broken red line is what I cut out with the bandsaw. That was a quick way to get the slot in the frame.