Disturbing Damascus Fraud

R

RonNewton

Joined
Aug 2, 2000
Messages
340
I recently invited another local maker to my shop to spend 8 hours(without pay) teaching him how to make a mosaic damascus "radial pattern" which was taught to me 3 years ago by Shane Taylor. At the end of the day, I gave him the steel plus other pieces of mosaic damascus(without pay). He informed me he planned on making knives from all this steel.All I asked for was steel credit. Well the first knife made from my steel just showed up on a well known knife web site as the other maker's steel. I must say I'm somewhat shocked. I'm prone to not invite this person back to my shop. I'd like to know how other folks view this situation. Maker's and collectors alike.

Ron Newton
ABS Mastersmith
 
Well Ron, as the old saying goes, 'no good deed goes un-punished'. The saying is sad, but true. Im sorry to here that somebody has learned something valuable from you, and then turned around and gave you the shaft like that. Hopefully he will see your post and change his ways.



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Richard
icq 61363141
Just some knife pictures
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=110070&a=4518795
UPDATED and REVISED
 
Plagiarism and fraud. The next time you see him should be in court, not your shop.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
Talk to the maker and vendor to see if you can get the credit corrected on the site, and make yourself clear on future use.

Return to this thread and let us know if you have satisfactory resolution. If not, be sure to let us know who the individual is, so that no one buys "fraudulent steel".
 
Well, this is certainly a sad thing. But first, email or phone the other maker and ask him what's going on. Maybe the site where the knife is listed for sale made the mistake, or intentionally miscredited the steel in order to improve its profit margin. A sole authorship knife is worth much more than a knife made with someone elses steel (at least to me).

Tell the maker you expect attribution for All of the steel you made for him. See if he does the right thing.

If that doesn't work (and very quickly), let the site where his knife is listed know about the situation. If the maker or the web site refuses to acknowledge his use of Your materials, contact the Guild and/or the ABS if appropriate. Even consider outing the makers name here in the Good, Bad, and Ugly forum.

I am interested in sole authorship work. So a knife presented has having been forged by a particular person should have actually been forged by that person. If a maker wants to use someone elses damascus (as is so common in the folder world), the maker of the steel should receive credit for his work. And that is true when the steel was Paid for. When it is a gift, and someone fails to acknowledge you, it speaks very poorly of the character of that maker.

Assume it was a mistake and see if it can be fixed. If not, out the name. I take it there is enough steel that this fraud could be perpetrated several more times. I am sorry to hear about this. But I'm still not sure exactly what has happened. I understand your shock and dismay, but I'm hoping there was some sort of innocent mistake made here. If not, let us know who this unfortunate character is and we will take care of him
smile.gif


Paracelsus

[This message has been edited by Paracelsus (edited 09-14-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Paracelsus:
If not, let us know who this unfortunate character is and we will take care of him
smile.gif
Click to expand...

Yeah, let us know, so we can take him out and hang 'im!
biggrin.gif


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iktomi
 
Hi Ron - If the listing at the other site was a mistake and gets corrected, that's one thing. However, if this person purposely misrepresented the knife, there's no excuse for that. That behavior should have ended around the 4th or 5th grade when we learn not to copy and take credit for somone else's work. I'm glad there are people around like you who are willing to share their knowledge. Anything that ever gets passed on to me stays with me unless I get permission to share it. I've only made a couple of knives several yeas ago, because that's what every tool & die maker does sooner or later. But any machining tips I learned the hard way - I'm always willing to share. That's what us knife people do. We don't steal or take credit for others' work. You helped someone and they back doored you - no excuse for that. I hope this doesn't stop you or anyone else from still sharing info with those of us who do appreciate it and treat it right.

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Fran (CT)
 
I would come down hard on this guy...there is NO excuse for this kind of behavior... i think you should publish his name.
 
Men, I appreciate your comments greatly. I needed to hear how other people would respond to this since I have zero experience in dealing with this kind of behavior.

I cannot find it in my character to mention any names or website, as much as it probably needs to be done. The last thing I want is to hurt someone elses business. I have enough information to know this act of plagiarism was intentional but I think I will just throw in the white towel and hope that I won't be reluctant to open up my shop to other makers in the future.
Sincerely,
Ron Newton
 
Ron- I can understand you not wanting to go public with the name, although I wish you would. It might prevent other makers/collectors getting burned. And he sure as h#*l wouldn't get any business from anyone at this forum.
 
Hi Ron.
Unless our eyes have realy gone bad, most of us can spot your steel a mile away. The guy is caught, he just don't know it yet.

See you in Mesquite.

Pete.

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old pete
 
Hi Ron,

It does no good to come on the forum and complain and then not name names.

There is no reason to list the web site (as this individual probably misrepresented himself there as well).

But the point of protecting the knife buying public is a good one. Why would you let someone knowingly buy a knife from a maker who both represents himself and his steel in a fradualent manner?

Ron, as you know this is a business. If this were Coca Cola and someone did them wrong like this. They would seek both criminal and civil remidies.

The individual needs to be named.

A letter needs to be sent to the PKA, Knifemakes Guild and the ABS outlining what happened. This is to put a complaint on file should this individual seek memebership in any of these orgainizations. He would have some explaining to do before he would be let in.

Ron, you know how hard you worked to get that MS. Don't let this guy misrepresent what took you years to develop. Thats not fair to you or the custom knife buying public.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
One of the things that attracted me to knives as a collector and kept me there is the integrity of at least 95% of the people involved in the industry. Other things have been the willingness of makers, collectors and purveyors to share their knowledge and experience, the acknowledgement of sources and mentors, and the respect that is shown to colleagues. As a collector I take theft from makers (whether it is a knife, or knowledge) seriously and personally because of the high standards that dominate.

As a group we seem to sift out most of the weeds pretty quickly.

It is hard for me to see how this could be an honest oversight and if it is not the sooner this fraud is made public the better it is for all of us.


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" I am continually reminded of the rewards of dealing with custom knife makers and the custom knife community." Jeff J.

[This message has been edited by Gus Kalanzis (edited 09-14-2000).]
 
What a Shame!!!

Ron, I understand where you are coming from, and I respect you very much for not wanting to "hurt someones business." It can be a very hard thing to do... Especially when the person was once considered to be a friend.

The only thing I would ask you to consider before making your final decision is - If you know for certain that this was not a mistake, then, not only did this person lie to you, and steal your work, but he has obviously misrepresented his product to a dealer, and by doing so he is also cheating all potential buyer's....

This person is a con-man, and a thief! In the end, not only will he have lied and cheated you, but he is going to get me (knife collectors) as well...

Like I said earlier, I understand you not wanting to "hurt someones business", but, IMHO, this person put the rope around his own neck!!!

If nothing else, you need to contact this individual, and persuade him to make it right... Perhaps threatening to contact the dealer, or, out him in public will be enough to get the situation resolved... If that does not work, I would urge you to contact the dealer, and let him know that he has a fraudulent product...

Good luck!

 
Ron,
I completely respect your right to make whatever final decision you should choose to make in this matter. But as long as you're asking for opinions, I would ask that you really consider the point that Les has made. I agree that we should worry less about the plagiarist and thief, and more about the poor guy who's going to waste his hard earned money on a fraud.

As Pete has pointed out, the truth is going to come to light sooner or later. That's pretty much inevitable. Unfortunately, unless action is taken now, this revelation will likely come too late to save the unwitting dupe (and will more than likely end up costing the custom knife community another of its ranks). Just my .02
smile.gif
.

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Semper Fi

-Bill
 
Well, I'm pretty sure I know which knife was being misrepresented, and the damascus maker's name has now been changed to give Ron the proper credit. That's great. I hope it was simply a misunderstanding. Ron, I hope that you won't be hesitant to bring other makers into your shop. That would be a shame for the knife community as a whole.

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Kelly
My Custom Knife Collection
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice
 
Hey Ron BEEN THERE DONE THAT.
Just remember the next time find out who your dealing with.

I used to be dumb enough to make and sell to Damascus.
Brian Tighe is one maker I can stand up and say is honorable.

I dont sell damascus anymore except to a very few. I give a few pieces away once in a while but thats it.

Try to work it out with the fella.
If ya cant give the name up.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
Hey Darrel! If you're giving away a piece or two of damascus, let me know. I will give you my address. :>)

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Danbo, soul brother of Rambo
 
Ron

Do not post his name on this or any site, for the time being. You will be vulnerable to a slander suit if you do.

Do sue him in small claims court. It will take only a little of your time, and you have a good case, in my opinion. If (and when) you win you can publish his name however you like. It, would, at that point, be public record.

If this guy did that you, it is very likely he has done it before. If you do nothing about it, it is more than likely that he will do it again.

I think I can appreciate how upset you are, and Mayo is right: "...come down hard on this guy." But there is no need to be "creative" about this. You have been harmed, and you have remedy. Take him to court.
 
Guys,

I'm sorry for posting two replies, but this is bothering me and I can't go to sleep.

I hope Ron plays hardball with this guy. It would be a service to all of us:

I have found an overwhelming amount of suuport and generosity among those knifemakers I have met so far. I am often thinking about it, and have concluded that the "society" is so open because there is so much goodwill among you. I, for instance, have myself been working lately with a world-class maker on a project which is very important to me. I have used a good deal of his time, experience and talent, none of which I could have come up with on my own. If not for his ggodwill, I'd be stuck at an impasse even now. Yet, all I had to do was to call him and ask for help! Had he been screwed like that, one too many times, He'd have turned me away. But, he did not.

Guys like this perpetrator are cancer. Cut it out, stomp it out, burn it out, whatever it takes. Ron, I volunteer to help.

[This message has been edited by samwereb (edited 09-16-2000).]
 
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