Disturbing trend

G

Gossman Knives

Edged Toolmaker
Joined
Apr 9, 2004
Messages
9,402
I'm posting this because I may have to change the way I handle orders. First off I will state how I handle order taking. When someone places an order I take down all the info on how the knife/sheath is going to be made. The individuals contact info and an estimated wait time. When your order is up, I contact you a week before I start to confirm the order and or cancellation. It usually takes two to three weeks to finish. You can ask anyone who has ordered a knife from me, I'm very prompt and within a few days of when I say it will be finished. If a problem or delay arises, I let them know the situation.
I never ask for money upfront. The only time is if there are expensive or unusal materials involved or it's a customer design that may be hard to sell if they back out of the order. Also if I do a run of a particular model posted on this forum.
I give everyone the opportunity to back out of a order when their order is up. If I'm given the go ahead to make the knife, I expect to be paid for it when it is completed.
What has been happening on a few occasions is that I'm given the go ahead and then when it comes time to pay for the knife, the person disappears. What bothers me about this is even though I don't ship knives until payment is received, it causes me to work on a knife that ends up not going to anyone when I could be working on someones knife who is patiently waiting for it.
I really don't want to have to ask for money upfront when someones order is up, but it may come to that if this continues.
Scott
 
Scott,
This is unfortunate.If someone gives you the go a head to make their knife they should be stand up enough to follow through with a contract.The problem with people is they have no problem backing out of a contract.I have always been raised that my word is my bond!

Mike
 
It is a sad situation. Not sure if it's the economy or that men just don't keep their word these days.

I would suggest that you ask for a non-refundable deposit. $50 or so, at least enough to make them think about it and to cover the hassle, time and potential loss that you may face.

I would think that up to 1/2 of the knife price would be reasonable myself.
 
Thanks for posting guys. I will say that this isn't a "major" issue but it is an issue that is happening more often as of late.
Scott
 
bigcountry1315 said:
I have always been raised that my word is my bond!
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Same here my friend, sometimes that is all we have! without that we are nothing. unfortunately some people don't care and think nothing of going back on what they say or breaking a promise.
 
Gossman Knives said:
I will say that this isn't a "major" issue but it is an issue that is happening more often as of late.
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I wonder if the volatile economy has put some folks in a bind lately. It does seem reasonable to me to ask for a deposit on custom orders. After all, you are being asked to order supplies and materials to undertake the order.
 
The point is that when a persons order is up after the wait period of about 4 months now, I give them the opportunity to back out before I start. If they confirm to go ahead with the order and I tell them 2 to 3 weeks until completion, there is plenty of time to get the funds together to make payment. If they can't pay, they tell me to cancel the order. The main cost for a custom knife is time/labor. The materials aren't really an issue since I have the steel, leather, kydex and handle material on hand most of the time.
Here is an example of what I'm talking about, say you work a 40 hour job. When payday comes, you only get paid for 32 hours. You are going to head straight to the boss and want an explanation. You don't want to hear, "we're not sure when we can pay you for the other 8 hours". You want to get paid for the work you performed for that week. Same in my case. I base my business operating expenses and bills according to the knives I'm making per week. If I'm working on a knife that I will not receive payment for, it's a waste of my time. Sure I can post it for sale, but there is no guarantee it will sell in a timely manner.
Scott
 
It seems that in this industry it is less common to ask for a deposit than in just about any other industry.

Probably not a big deal if it's a normal knife that you can turn around and sell fairly quickly but as you mentioned, you are out your time that you could have been working on knives that would generate income immediately.

If I was to order one of your knives I would have no problem putting down a 50% or so deposit. I work in the shooting industry and can tell you that dealers that don't ask for deposits on special orders wind up with lots of stuff they have a hard time selling. Deposits are not a bad thing, they are simply a statement of seriousness on the part of the one giving the order and trust on the part of the maker.

Charlie
 
if someone really wants a knife they will be willing to pay up front. otherwise its kind of an invite to back out.
whether you pay now or in a month, the money doesnt change.
 
Scott, It is hard to do the work and not have the money that you were expecting. It is a very frustrating way to work. I know that I have no problem paying up front for a great knife. I don't think that a non refundable deposit would make serious customers think twice about buying a knife from you. Your work speaks for itself.
 
I remember my parents describing some friends and business associates as, "A man of his word". This was explained to me to mean that if this individual gave you his or her word on something you could, take it to the bank, bet the house etc.
I don't believe that this attitude that you can give your word on something and then change your mind has much to do with the economic downturn. This problem has been here for quite a long time. Some folks always seem to find an excuse not to follow through on what they have committed to.
The times they are/have changing(ed).
Scott, decide how much of a deposit you want and set the policy. You would be absolutely right to do so.:thumbup:
 
Is this happening only with first time "buyers"? If so, a non-refundable deposit for first-timers seems to make sense.
 
JCavSD said:
Is this happening only with first time "buyers"? If so, a non-refundable deposit for first-timers seems to make sense.
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It is happening mostly with first time people but not all the time. This has nothing to do with my regular customers. I know who they are and there are alot of them.
There was a situation where I had a fella order two knives. Gave me the go ahead. The knives were completed, he paid. No problem. Then after he got the knives he was so pleased he ordered another of the same knife for a family member. This was all done through the telephone, no emails. I contacted him in the same manner as the first two, he gave me the go ahead. The knife was finished and I tried to reach him, never hearing from him again. I ended up selling the knife on BF a month later.
Scott
 
Gossman Knives said:
It is happening mostly with first time people but not all the time. This has nothing to do with my regular customers. I know who they are and there are alot of them.
There was a situation where I had a fella order two knives. Gave me the go ahead. The knives were completed, he paid. No problem. Then after he got the knives he was so pleased he ordered another of the same knife for a family member. This was all done through the telephone, no emails. I contacted him in the same manner as the first two, he gave me the go ahead. The knife was finished and I tried to reach him, never hearing from him again. I ended up selling the knife on BF a month later.
Scott
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I'm glad you got some money out of that knife...although I'm sure it wasn't enough to cover the hassle you had to go through.

Trying to put myself in the shoes of a knifemaker...and I think that if this issue most commonly happens with first time "buyers", then that's where I'd put the deposit. Pick the low hanging fruit. Knowing my accounting skills I'd have problems with taking deposits for all work...It would hurt my brain to try to keep track of who paid what deposit, when, how much, etc. There's at least one maker in BF who takes deposits and gets "confused".

FYI - I don't own any of your work, but you're on my short list. Because of your reputation I'd have no issue with putting down a deposit.
 
Thanks Jason and all who have responed to this thread. Jason, you are right about keeping track of deposits. It can become confusing and easy to lose track.
A good recent example is an ironwood Tusker I posted on my forum. The guy lead me on to build the knife, then disappeared when the time came to pay. Fortunately it was exactly like the one BF member Rotte had placed an order for. Timing was perfect because his order was close. He ended up with the Tusker.
Scott
 
Gossman Knives said:
The knife was finished and I tried to reach him, never hearing from him again. I ended up selling the knife on BF a month later.
Scott
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This is what I've been wondering about.....the person who ordered the knife bails on you, aren't you still able to sell the knife on the open market? If so, then what's the problem?
 
I can see how the scenario you describe could be frustrating, Scott. My one caution would be that some makers seem to use the deposit as a funding stream, rather than a way to balance the risk, then kinda loose track, pissing off many a customer in the process. As a result, personally, I won't pay 100% up front for a knife anymore. That said, some kind of deposit designed to spread the risk isn't unreasonable, as long the maker meets his timelines too. My 2 cents, worth the same.
 
I would have absolutely no problem paying a deposit for a custom knife. It only seems fair to me. Besides, it minimizes the "pain" of paying for it by spreading out the cash out lay a bit. From a consumer's point of view, it's easier to make couple smaller payments than it is to pay a bigger chunk all at once. I think you owe it to yourself to insure that you get what is rightfully yours, and that is to get paid for your hard work and talent. That may well mean asking for a deposit to cover your risk. There is nothing wrong with that. Business is business, after all.
Also, I don't think people appreciate that it takes time to re-sell a knife. That's time that is totally wasted because you could have spent it making knives. And of course, time=money.
Lastly, I have to agree with the many other posters that have expressed their dismay that it no longer seems that people stick by their word. I guess all we can do about that is to be sure to teach the importance of this to the next generation.
 
rayban said:
This is what I've been wondering about.....the person who ordered the knife bails on you, aren't you still able to sell the knife on the open market? If so, then what's the problem?
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The problem is, there is no guarantee that it will sell in a time period that is required to help maintain my expenses. It may take months to sell the knife. I've had several posted for sale in the past that never did sell. I did eventually move them but it took a long time to do so.
Let face it, custom knifemakers will never get rich doing what we love to do. I don't care how fast you are or how good you are. You will never generate alot of money as a knifemaker unless you charge ridiculous prices for your knives.
Scott
 
Gossman Knives said:
The problem is, there is no guarantee that it will sell in a time period that is required to help maintain my expenses. It may take months to sell the knife. I've had several posted for sale in the past that never did sell. I did eventually move them but it took a long time to do so.
Let face it, custom knifemakers will never get rich doing what we love to do. I don't care how fast you are or how good you are. You will never generate alot of money as a knifemaker unless you charge ridiculous prices for your knives.
Scott
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To add to it...The amount of labor put into a product, any product, vs. how much the product is sold for has a big impact on the net profit. Labor is an expense, and any added labor is money that comes out of the knifemakers pocket...unless he raises the price of his products. If someone backs out on a knife, and it has to be posted for a few months before it sells, that takes time...which increase expense. Bottom line, is that people who bail on their orders take some money out of Scott's pocket and/or drive up the price of his other knives. Bad for everyone.
 
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