Divert me thread

Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,594
Dave, tell me exactly what you would do if Uncle Sam asked you to "fix" the M-14. (and as I have a fetish for the BM-59, that one too)

Next, I want pictures of real bowie knives from 1820 to 1890

Lastly, I want to marry somebody's Italian cousin.
 
I can help the diversion with the first question, having been a 2111 (Small Arms Repairman) in the Marines in the early 70s, and M14s were still in use.

Personally, IMO the rifle is stuck between two intended missions -- 1) Individual battle rifle and 2) Squad auto rifle.

In either instance I would slow the ROF to make the weapon more controllable in FA mode.

For individual battle rifle use I would slightly shorten the barrel (not anything stupid like a SOCOM; just a couple inches) and bed the thing in a lighter synthetic stock. I'd add an adjustable gas regulator like that of the FAL.

For SAW use I'd beef up the barrel diameter and use a synthetic stock. Add the adjustable gas regulator. I'd also make the mode selector three position, fast auto, slow auto, and semi. Fast auto would still be MUCH slower than the M14s original design ROF for better controllability. And I'd fit some aluminum, titanium, or carbon fiber bipod legs to the barrel. Sorta like an an updated BAR in 7.62 NATO, only not as heavy.

Can't help with the Bowies, but my gay cousin Vincent (NOT Vinnie) might be interested . . . ;)

Noah
 
All my cousins are butt-ugly. Sorry.
I do have a nice Italian motorcycle.....sorry.
Damn, ole Mikey ain't much help.:(

--Mike L.
 
I thought one of Dave's issues with the M14 was securing the front sight. I too would be interested to hear about good fixes for that, as well as any other ideas.

Tom
 
I thought one of Dave's issues with the M14 was securing the front sight. I too would be interested to hear about good fixes for that, as well as any other ideas.

Tom

That's an easy "fix," just use opposing large-headed screws like the Galil or FAL.

Noah
 
Ah, me and the M14...here's what I'd change.

1. Front sight. The sight itself is fine; it's the sight block that's all jacked up. It should wrap around the barrel and be keyed, pinned, or soldered or such in place. Those nice sturdy ears protecting the sight become completely ineffective if a moderate bump on one dislodges the entire sight block. (And generally strips or trashes the screw in the process.)

This is by far my largest gripe. It's the problem I spent the most time correcting and is in my mind a critical design flaw.

2. Rear sight. It's fragile, so fragile in fact that if it's not bottomed all the way it can be damaged while cleaning the rifle. (Because the rifle must be held upside-down to clean in order to keep assorted garbage out of the gas system -- more on this later.) The markings are too small and difficult to read. The whole screw-through-the-middle thing was never a good idea and should be replaced by a different system.

3. Gas system. It's in the wrong place, for one thing; placing it above the barrel instead of below would place the bore more in line with the shoulder and dramatically reduce muzzle rise. It would also make turning the rifle upside-down for cleaning unnecessary.

4. The action. Locking the bolt to the receiver like this isn't a good idea. It complicates manufacture, hinders accuracy, and generally causes problems with no actual advantage. I'll say for the record that in this particular case it works and works well, but that's a testament to the quality of manufacture, not the soundness of the design itself.

5. The bedding system. It makes dismounting and swapping stocks a snap and sucks in all other regards for numerous reasons.

6. The safety. It works and it's pretty quiet but it's extremely difficult to operate with heavy gloves or mittens. It would be nice if it could be engaged without charging the rifle first.

7. The handguard. They break easily and they're a hindrance to accuracy as implemented.

8. The flash hider. They are far too constrictive and all should be reamed out to NM specs at the very least. If they're even slightly misaligned (and they do occasionally show up from the depot like this) you'll know it from a crazy zero and gilding metal streaks on the interior. If it's more misaligned than that (I've seen a few) the flash hider gets shredded.

9. As Noah said, the ROF is far too high. It was an abject failure as a FA weapon, although I'm not sure that a lower ROF would completely solve the problem. The thing's just too light for that, and without a straightline stock...

10. It would be nice if the buttstocks accesories actually fit in their assigned places from the start...at least, without the use of a rasp. It would also be nice if pliars weren't occasionally required to get them back out. The end user or armorer can fix this easily enough but shouldn't it have been fixed before it left the factory?

11. The charging handle is on the wrong side of the rifle for right-handed users.

12. I've never liked rock-in magazines. Even with practice it's easier to screw things up than it is with magazines that go in straight.

14. From a manufacturing standpoint it's a nightmare. That doesn't affect me or you but it does affect why we can't purchase rifles built to military specifications -- because nobody can make them, at least not for a price that most could afford.

To be fair to the rifle, it's based heavily on a design that predates WWII and would have to be basically a pre-war rifle without massive design changes. Semiautomatic rifles were a fairly new thing at the time and we didn't know then what we do now. This does not excuse its flaws though; the US had several opportunities to pursue more advanced designs with far fewer intrisic defects and chose not to, and if it's going to be brought up as a good choice today (which people tend to do) it must be compared with the other things that are available, even if they're newer designs.
 
Go back to the M1. Have shot both 1000's of rds. Closed bottom keeps out debris. $0.50 enblock vs $30+ magazine. FA is for belt feds, most M14s don't have the "happy switch" anyway. Could be updated w/ synthetic stock & forward mounted optics.
Uplander
 
. . . To be fair to the rifle, it's based heavily on a design that predates WWII and would have to be basically a pre-war rifle without massive design changes. Semiautomatic rifles were a fairly new thing at the time and we didn't know then what we do now. This does not excuse its flaws though; the US had several opportunities to pursue more advanced designs with far fewer intrisic defects and chose not to, and if it's going to be brought up as a good choice today (which people tend to do) it must be compared with the other things that are available, even if they're newer designs.

It is a prewar design, borrowing heavily from the M1 Rifle and modified according to Col. Rene Studler's subjective wishes. Reading the account of the M14's development, Col. Studler essentially kept saying "No, do it again" until he got the rifle he wanted. Otherwise, the US might have ended up with a version of the FAL. Col. Studler quashed that idea because the US "couldn't purchase a foreign-made weapon" even though H&R made the T48 prototypes in Massachusetts.

Fast forward to 2007, and we have M4s, M240s, and M249s made by FNH, M9s made by Beretta, and M15s made by SIG to name a few, not to mention the AT-4 weapon based on the Swedish CG Antitank weapon. Col. Studler must be spinning in his grave.

Noah
 
Dave can you have a look at the BM-59 ?
They have a different gas system and the magazines do go straight in.
 
Dan, these aren't bowies but are worth a look: hand made by forumites here.

nessie017jt3.jpg


(Below) Sarge-made curly-birch handled GP knife, (above) Nessmuk in curly maple by Andy.

My wife does have a hot-lookin' cousin in Bergamo, Italy who is just recently single. She has green eyes and straight black hair; nice. Theresita.

Dunno if she'd go for the ninja thing, though. Can you manage Italian swordsman? :p

Bet you're distracted now.


Mike
 
Mike,
Theresita sounds VERY interesting. I am not kidding here, put in a good word. I'll send you pics if she sounds interested at all. Tell her I make a killer meat sauce, fried peppers and sausage and hellishly good garlic bread.
I should have studied ninpo in Italy to begin with. Who knew?

I found an antique bowie knife that I want to buy. It has no papers and no sheath, but it is very much the kind I like.
Please don't bid me out , anybody. I need a pick me up.
a52c_3.JPG
 
Fast forward to 2007, and we have M4s, M240s, and M249s made by FNH, M9s made by Beretta, and M15s made by SIG to name a few, not to mention the AT-4 weapon based on the Swedish CG Antitank weapon. Col. Studler must be spinning in his grave.

Do not forget the A2's and A3's, which are now entirely FN's. I was not aware that they ever got a contract for M4's.

FN did finally get their desired contract for the US service rifle...it just happened fourty years later. :)
 
I found an antique bowie knife that I want to buy. It has no papers and no sheath, but it is very much the kind I like.

Danny, just thought I'd mention this since I don't think you need another disappointment right now, but there are several things about this knife that to my amateur eye, don't look like an antique. Or maybe you knew that already... If you're considering spending big bucks here, definitely ask about it in Bernard Levine's forum. Most of the "antique bowies" on ebay are fakes.
 
ive considered that possibility. the handle does strike me as having some odd things and the blade does seem oddly "browned"
its a cheapie though, cheaper than a new bowie..
 
Thanks Yvsa, Dan is the man for antique Bowies. He knew more about what I wanted than I did and his prices are great.
He is also into trench knives (and you all know my favorite knife)
 
Back
Top