DMT aligner and freehand sharpening

[quattromori]

So here I am again, still on the lowest part of the learning curve of freehand sharpening but willing to get better (for various reasons, I haven't even touched my sandpaper for some time, and my diamond stones are waiting for me to go to the US and take them). My technique seems to be getting slowly better, I'm in no hurry so I'm taking my time to learn and trying to understand my mistakes.
So recently I have been trying to reprofile a knife (it seemed to me that the factory edge had a very open angle (I guess around 45/50°) and I realized that so far it's still hard for me to keep the same angle on the two directions unless I'm following an "existent" angle. Someone here suggested the use of a DMT aligner as a help to correct myself so I'm considering getting one. I have found this video on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZOM_3Xi8O0

and I was wondering if that's the best movement I can do (either on diamond stones on a benchstone base or on sandpaper on a hard backing) and if that could really help me keeping a constant angle in reprofiling (I am using a marker and a magnifying lens with a very bright light).
Thank u in advance for ur opinions.

 

[I be he]

If you want to learn how to freehand, stop looking for the next crutch. Get some cheap knives to sharpen(everybody and their mother has them) also grab a couple of cheap stones (can get just about anywhere) a marker to see where you are removeing metal from, and give her hell untill you get it or quit. Theres no real magic to it, if there was this retard wouldnt be able to get-r-done. If you are looking for knifenut kind of sharp, that will take a fair amount more of equipmtment and technique refineing. Sorry, not trying to be harsh, but nothing replaces doing, and it sounds like you got somemore doing comeing

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That video is basically a good demo, for the stroke best used with the Aligner & a bench stone. The 'heel-to-tip' sweeping stroke, when done smoothly and with light pressure, will help to keep the scratch pattern very uniform on the edge. Just take it nice & easy, don't rush, and make real good use of your magnifier & bright light to inspect your progress.

Since you're reprofiling your knife, start with a Coarse or Xtra-Coarse diamond hone (Edit: OR, start with something like 220 grit sandpaper, if that's what you prefer). That'll make the 'grunt work' of establishing a new bevel a little easier. Watch closely, with your magnifier, to see when you've completely apexed the full length of the cutting edge. At that point, you'll also likely have a burr on the edge, which you should be able to feel with your fingernail (slide your nail from spine towards the edge; if the burr is there, your nail will stop against it). When you know you've reached that point, that's the time to flip the blade over and 'flip' the burr to the other side.

Verifying the burr on each side, one at a time, is the cue to move on to the next grit level. You'll use the subsequent grits to gradually reduce the burr, and refine the edge. Throughout the entire process, make sure you keep your pressure light. That'll make your angle much more precise (pressing too hard tends to 'flex' the aligner, which results in angle variation), and will also help to refine the scratch pattern. By the time you've reached the finishing grit, you should have a wicked sharp edge (& with practice, you'll even have that with the coarse hone).

To summarize:
1. Work with PATIENCE. Don't rush.
2. Maintain VERY LIGHT pressure.
3. Inspect closely, with magnifier and VERY BRIGHT LIGHT, as you go. Watch for the burr, 'flip it' to the other side, then move to the next grit stage.
4. Use the subsequent grits to reduce the burr and refine the scratch pattern.

 

[Jason B.]

You can follow the method in the video but don't get the wrong impression on how much grinding you MUST do in the beginning. The first setting of the bevel will take some time (depending on steel and thickness) and will be your most important step. Each following step will only be to smooth the scratch pattern and edge roughness, the edge should also become progressively sharper after each stone.

When using the aligner with bench stones it is also very important to keep light and consistent pressure. Not only will this be best for getting the most out of each stone but it also prevents flex of the aligner arms. Uneven use of pressure causes the arms to flex and create multiple points of contact on the bevel, not that noticeable at coarser grits but messing up the ground work makes using the finer grits very difficult.

Tips,
1) place a small strip of masking tape on the blade where the clamp is to be placed.
2) place the clamp 50/50 until it becomes "second nature", some blades will need the clamp position modified so the grind does not become uneven. Usually a issue with longer knives or those with a large belly.
3) make sure the clamp is fully tightened according to the instructions and cannot be moved on the blade.
4) watch the arms for turning, as they glide along the table they can twist a bit causing the angle adjustment to slip. So every so often check to make sure they are locked in the proper groove and not about to slip.
5) for bevel setting its best to start no higher than 220 mesh.

Remember pressure is the most important factor when using diamonds, too much will hurt the stone and give you a chewed up edge with excessive burring. Each diamond hone is capable of producing a burr free or very close edge, less pressure= less burr and a sharper edge.

 

[quattromori]

Thank u again for ur answers (somehow I knew that OWE and Knifenut would give me precious advice...I sure hoped for it).
I am just beginning to learn freehand and I am in no rush at all. I just try to be very careful to what I am doing, and try to recognize a mistake before it gets into my muscular memory (and therefore becomes harder to change). I be he is absolutely right that nothing replaces doing, but still I rather ask for the way on the road before I get miles away from the right track.
Thanks to all the info and suggestions I got here, I got better in touch-ups, I can't really shave but I feel like I'm not too far and that's making me feel I am somehow on the good path (no matter how long it will take). I do things with plenty of time (my life and job have developed my sense of calmness when I do anything), use the marker, inspect often under a nice and bright light and use a very light pressure, and I went up the grit scale (with sandpaper) and kinda refine the edge and sctratches. And for all this I thank u all, of course.
That is why I decided to give it a try and set a new bevel on a blade (it's a cheap blade so no worries). So far I have been able to change the pre existing angle and bevel (with 220 sandpaper) but couldn't get a really symmetrical angle and that's why I thought the aligner could be a good help. I guess I will just buy it and see if it does help me or not...I just wanted some opinions about it.
Hopefully my next thread will be one of those "I can shave!" ones...
Thank u again

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thank u again for ur answers (somehow I knew that OWE and Knifenut would give me precious advice...I sure hoped for it).
I am just beginning to learn freehand and I am in no rush at all. I just try to be very careful to what I am doing, and try to recognize a mistake before it gets into my muscular memory (and therefore becomes harder to change). I be he is absolutely right that nothing replaces doing, but still I rather ask for the way on the road before I get miles away from the right track.
Thanks to all the info and suggestions I got here, I got better in touch-ups, I can't really shave but I feel like I'm not too far and that's making me feel I am somehow on the good path (no matter how long it will take). I do things with plenty of time (my life and job have developed my sense of calmness when I do anything), use the marker, inspect often under a nice and bright light and use a very light pressure, and I went up the grit scale (with sandpaper) and kinda refine the edge and sctratches. And for all this I thank u all, of course.
That is why I decided to give it a try and set a new bevel on a blade (it's a cheap blade so no worries). So far I have been able to change the pre existing angle and bevel (with 220 sandpaper) but couldn't get a really symmetrical angle and that's why I thought the aligner could be a good help. I guess I will just buy it and see if it does help me or not...I just wanted some opinions about it.
Hopefully my next thread will be one of those "I can shave!" ones...
Thank u again

Thank you. I'm glad you found my advice helpful. :thumbup:

I've found the Aligner to be very useful for 'correcting' a thick or uneven bevel on new knives (I use the 'Magna-Guide' with the Dia-Fold hones). My preferred method for maintaining those new edges, is with the sandpaper. If you still think you'll pursue that method, you can develop a feel for it much more easily by 'practicing' with 1000/2000 grit paper on a knife that's already got a good bevel on it (such as what the Aligner will give you). The fine grit sandpaper won't undo too much of your previous good work, if your technique is still a bit off. My perspective is, if you know your edge is already very good, you'll FOCUS a lot more on the technique (maintaining light pressure and consistent angle), so you can maintain, or even improve upon, that good edge. Take it nice & slow, a few passes at a time, then inspect the edge and check it's cutting performance as compared to previous. I think it'll surprise you, how quickly the 'feel' aspect will develop in your hands. When you reach a point where you know you can improve upon your edge, using the fine sandpaper, you'll start thinking toward using that same, newly-developed muscle memory to do some more aggressive work with knives that need it.

As for using a 'crutch', such as the Aligner, it can teach you a LOT about the process. Pay close attention to how it all feels, in hand, when you're using it. I've noticed, the Aligner is conducive to good freehand technique, if used properly. Pay attention to how you use your grip, on both the hone and the knife, so that you can see how it affects regulating pressure and angle. The Aligner will allow you to focus on those aspects, without the constant distraction of the angle changing as you work. At some point, while using the Aligner, it will (hopefully) begin to feel 'natural' in hand. That's when you should begin thinking about duplicating that feel in your freehand technique. Many of us, long ago, learned how to ride a bike using training wheels. At some point, it became completely intuitive to ride without their assistance. As awkward and silly as it felt initially, those training wheels served a valuable purpose.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey.

 

[quattromori]

Thank u again.
Actually, that's the sort of idea I had when I thought about getting the aligner. I think I have come to a decent point in lightness of touch with an existing bevel (on sandpaper), but of course putting a new bevel is another story, and I assume my hands are not ready for that yet.
I will try with the aligner, hoping, as u said, that it will teach me something about angles and reprofiling, and somehow make my learning curve steeper. I have experienced big changes (even in my first trials) in the "feel" of the blade passing on sandpaper (I have sensitive hands and that sure helps me), just think I need some guide for the "away" stroke (my idea is that the angle I am getting on the "closing" stroke is the right one, even tho I haven't really measured it).
Thanks again...and yes, I am already enjoying my journey

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

That reminds me. Regarding the 'away' stroke, you might also try using both right and left hands with a 'toward' stroke. The 'toward' stroke offers an obvious advantage, in being able to see the edge in flush contact with the hone. I've also noticed some variation in angle, when I sharpen, between the toward and away stroke (I think pretty much everyone tends to be a little steeper or shallower with one or the other). Using the same technique, both right and left handed, will really build confidence in your ability, in the long run. And, using both right & left hands engages both hemispheres of the brain, which I've noticed enhances everything else I may do, AFTER I've put the sharpening tools away. I think, maybe, that's a part of what some might call the 'Zen' of sharpening...

 

[quattromori]

It's funny to see how manual skills and attitudes can be a variable...cause I first noticed a difference (meaning that my "toward" stroke seems better and more constant) using an edge trailing movement, therefore not seeing the blade contact with sandpaper. Then I changed to edge leading, and found out that things didn't change. My movement is better when I look at the back of the blade. Who knows why. Seems like seeing the contact area does not really help me (or maybe I don't pay enough attention to it), and my guess is that this problem may have something to do with the way I handle the knife or the position of the sandpaper on the table. Maybe the aligner will be of some help.
I had never thought about using both hands actually. One more thing to try. Also, training manual skills (and neuromuscular trasmission) with the left hand too will only do me good.
And, of course, thank u for the suggestion.

 

[quattromori]

I'm bringing back this post just to thank all the people around here that speeded my way into freehand sharpening. I know it would have taken me a lot more time without ur suggestions, and even if I'm still beginning, and I do have a lot to learn and practice, today I celebrate my first hair shaving edge (on a carbon steel Opinel n.7).
I tried to follow any advice I heard here, the knife wasn't too dull but not sharp anymore either. I gave it a try with sandpaper on mousepad backing, and it took me a very long time to do it (since I tried to pay much attention to any step); I know most of you would get a better edge in 15 minutes, but I will get there sooner or later.
Still, the French friend shaves now (not too smoothly but it does). I know I have a long way before me, I'm still making mistakes, and will still need ur valuable experience and advices, but I don't care about that today. I am just enjoying some fruit (cleanly sliced) and thanking u all.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Way to go, quattromori! :thumbup:

Regarding taking 'a very long time', because you're paying close attention to what you do:

Trust me, that'll pay off in a BIG way, in the long run. Taking time to pay attention to all that you do, and the results of that, will make it 'click' that much sooner, down the road. I maintained some bad habits, for a VERY LONG TIME, before I signed up here on BF. I'd spent many years contemplating the whys & hows of 'proper' sharpening, but having no real clue as to how to achieve it. Once I started lurking around here, reading more & more from those who've been getting good (excellent) results for much longer than I, things just started to fall into place. The vast majority of my real progress has happened in just the last 2 years. The learning curve has been all uphill, very fast and very, very FUN.

It's interesting that you've made your accomplishment on an Opinel. I've been working on an Opinel No. 8, in carbon steel, this very afternoon, using the sandpaper and finishing with some 3M micron polishing paper (9/3/2/1 micron). First time I've tried this stuff, it's quite impressive. So, I'm still learning some new stuff too.

 

[tiguy7]

I built a jig that holds large coarse and medium stones at the same angle as the Spyderco Sharp Maker. I grind and polish the bevels on the large stones and use the S/M to finish up. I find that it is easy and intuitive to hold the knife perpendicular to the floor while using the jig and the S/M. The notion that you can hold a knife at the correct angle stroke after stroke is a little far fetched, but holding a knife in the verticle position is not too difficult. The stones I use are either 4"X10" or 2 1/2"X 11 1/2", but any stone smaller will work.

 

[LEE IN VA.]

Good topic, I too am a newbie who has started lurking, so much to take in here. Trying to decide on my first real sharpener. I work in a body shop so I have access to all sandpaper up to 3,000 grit.

 

[quattromori]

The reason why I tried on an Opinel 7 is that, after practicing on cheap kitchen knives, I wanted a knife that was cheap enough, and at the same time that could take a very sharp edge...Opinel and carbon steel!
I know I have a long long way to go (for example, angle consistence in the 'away' stroke seems to be by far my weakest point), and I am also willing to try other ways (diamond stones are on their way, maybe the aligner) but still. I feel like I'm on the good way, and time is not a problem (and I can fill some long quiet nightshifts)...
Thanks again

 

[quattromori]

Lee, I am the last one in the line of sharpeners here, but being a newbie myself, there is one thing I feel like suggesting you.
Take your time, and read alot on this forum. Start cheap (cheap knives, sandpaper). U will make mistakes (u will make them anyway, as I did, as anybody else) but sure u won't regret anything. And there is alot of fun in challenging yourself and learning something new. At least, that's how it's going for me.

 

[zyhano]

If you allow me OWE, I'd like to make a little adjustment to your good advice.
regarding point 3. the burr, make sure you have the edge aligned perfectly under the spine (unless you don't want to do this for some reason). Make sure you give both sides of the edge an equal amount of time/strokes. If you raise a burr all along the edge on one side, you can flip it over within a couple of strokes too. But if you do 200 strokes on one side and then 20 on the other, your edge might be misaligned under the spine.
Make sure the metal removal on each side is equal (on an already spine-centered edge).

using an equal amount of strokes becomes less important when going to finer grits.

That video is basically a good demo, for the stroke best used with the Aligner & a bench stone. The 'heel-to-tip' sweeping stroke, when done smoothly and with light pressure, will help to keep the scratch pattern very uniform on the edge. Just take it nice & easy, don't rush, and make real good use of your magnifier & bright light to inspect your progress.

Since you're reprofiling your knife, start with a Coarse or Xtra-Coarse diamond hone (Edit: OR, start with something like 220 grit sandpaper, if that's what you prefer). That'll make the 'grunt work' of establishing a new bevel a little easier. Watch closely, with your magnifier, to see when you've completely apexed the full length of the cutting edge. At that point, you'll also likely have a burr on the edge, which you should be able to feel with your fingernail (slide your nail from spine towards the edge; if the burr is there, your nail will stop against it). When you know you've reached that point, that's the time to flip the blade over and 'flip' the burr to the other side.

Verifying the burr on each side, one at a time, is the cue to move on to the next grit level. You'll use the subsequent grits to gradually reduce the burr, and refine the edge. Throughout the entire process, make sure you keep your pressure light. That'll make your angle much more precise (pressing too hard tends to 'flex' the aligner, which results in angle variation), and will also help to refine the scratch pattern. By the time you've reached the finishing grit, you should have a wicked sharp edge (& with practice, you'll even have that with the coarse hone).

To summarize:
1. Work with PATIENCE. Don't rush.
2. Maintain VERY LIGHT pressure.
3. Inspect closely, with magnifier and VERY BRIGHT LIGHT, as you go. Watch for the burr, 'flip it' to the other side, then move to the next grit stage.
4. Use the subsequent grits to reduce the burr and refine the scratch pattern.

 

[JRR85]

Just figured I'd add my .02 to the conversation. I've been freehand sharpening with stones for around 17 years now. I personally use the 6' DMT stones and love them, though I don't have the aligner so I can't speak for it. Looked at the video you posted and the technique he's using looks fine, and as the others before me said it really comes down to practice. I have to say, using the marker and such is a good way to start, but soon you'll just be able to tell by the resistance the stone gives you and the cutting sound whether you have the correct angle you want or not.

I also wanted to say tell you to stick with it and don't give up, I consider freehand sharpening with Whetstones / Diamond stones a dying art so it's good to see people here picking it up or keeping the tradition alive.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

If you allow me OWE, I'd like to make a little adjustment to your good advice.
regarding point 3. the burr, make sure you have the edge aligned perfectly under the spine (unless you don't want to do this for some reason). Make sure you give both sides of the edge an equal amount of time/strokes. If you raise a burr all along the edge on one side, you can flip it over within a couple of strokes too. But if you do 200 strokes on one side and then 20 on the other, your edge might be misaligned under the spine.
Make sure the metal removal on each side is equal (on an already spine-centered edge).

using an equal amount of strokes becomes less important when going to finer grits.

If I wasn't relying on a magnifier to inspect the edge, this might be more important. When I emphasize closely inspecting the edge, asymmetry of the bevel is something that I'll look for (and notice) automatically. An uneven bevel is pretty obvious at decent magnification, and under good light especially (wider bevel on one side will really stand out). I've done the stroke-counting thing before, but even so, the count seldom comes out the same for both sides, when the edge is finally deemed 'ready' under close inspection, and the burr formation is verified. Small differences in the toward & away strokes, especially with regard to regulating pressure, make a difference in how much metal gets removed on each pass. And a small difference in the angle maintained on the toward & away stroke can make a bevel that's tilted or canted to one side or the other, even if the same number of strokes are used on each side. And the more closely I look at the edges & blade grinds, the more I notice differences in the primary grind (all the steel between the bevel and the spine), which make the blade, as a whole, asymmetrical. Unless the entire blade were to be reground, the edge would never actually be centered in reference to the spine. Too many variables play into it. This is why I don't rely too much on counting strokes, and prefer instead to verify, visually, that the bevel itself is even and symmetrical. Counting strokes alone hasn't helped me much in the past.

 

[zyhano]

If I wasn't relying on a magnifier to inspect the edge, this might be more important. When I emphasize closely inspecting the edge, asymmetry of the bevel is something that I'll look for (and notice) automatically. An uneven bevel is pretty obvious at decent magnification, and under good light especially (wider bevel on one side will really stand out). I've done the stroke-counting thing before, but even so, the count seldom comes out the same for both sides, when the edge is finally deemed 'ready' under close inspection, and the burr formation is verified. Small differences in the toward & away strokes, especially with regard to regulating pressure, make a difference in how much metal gets removed on each pass. And a small difference in the angle maintained on the toward & away stroke can make a bevel that's tilted or canted to one side or the other, even if the same number of strokes are used on each side. And the more closely I look at the edges & blade grinds, the more I notice differences in the primary grind (all the steel between the bevel and the spine), which make the blade, as a whole, asymmetrical. Unless the entire blade were to be reground, the edge would never actually be centered in reference to the spine. Too many variables play into it. This is why I don't rely too much on counting strokes, and prefer instead to verify, visually, that the bevel itself is even and symmetrical. Counting strokes alone hasn't helped me much in the past.

I agree. I don't count either, but I do make sure everything is more or less centered and that the amount of passes I take on one side is in the same order of magnitude as on the other side. It's a feel thing.
Just wanted to add a little info

 

[LEE IN VA.]

Lee, I am the last one in the line of sharpeners here, but being a newbie myself, there is one thing I feel like suggesting you.
Take your time, and read alot on this forum. Start cheap (cheap knives, sandpaper). U will make mistakes (u will make them anyway, as I did, as anybody else) but sure u won't regret anything. And there is alot of fun in challenging yourself and learning something new. At least, that's how it's going for me.

Yes, trying to read and take in all this info before I make a sharpener purchase.