DMT EEF vs Spyderco UF

[KnifeCarsen10]

1. Hello everybody, I’ve got a few questions regarding different sharpening stone. Right now I have a 320 grit diamond plate and a 600 grit diamond plate for the work Sharp guides sharpening system. I’m looking at expanding and getting more. Here is what I am looking at: Tye upgrade kit for the worksharp guided sharpening system(200 grit and 800 grit), a DMT extra fine plate, a dmt extra extra fine plate, and the wicked edge diamond strop compounds(5, 3.5, 1, 0.5 micron. My questions regarding this setup are: Will I be able to whittle a hanging hair, should I get the Spyderco Fine and ultra fine stones instead of the DMT’s, and what should I use the strop compound on. Thanks guys!

 

[Lapedog]

I prefer the ultra fine as a finishing stone. I basically use it instead of a strop.

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

I prefer the ultra fine as a finishing stone. I basically use it instead of a strop.

Thanks! How sharp does it get the edge? What do you use before the UF?

 

[Lapedog]

Thanks! How sharp does it get the edge? What do you use before the UF?

Idk I’m not annamazing sharpener. I can get it sharp enough to shave easily or push cut all different types of paper.

Before the UF I used the Spyderco Fine. I am just getting good at using diamonds to get the basic shape of the apex then I use the medium, find, ultrafine to get a pretty good edge.

 

[bgentry]

I own the DMT EF and the Spyderco UF. I know you are asking about the EEF and not the EF.

DMT plates tend to seem more rough (coarse) than their ratings would indicate. For example, the EF, which is 9 micron leaves a scratch pattern that's more like a 20 micron belt/stone. I believe this is because of the pointy shape of the diamonds which makes them dig more deeply into the material they are grinding. Others have pointed out that the fact the diamonds are fixed in place and do not move (like a more friable stone) magnifies this effect also.

I would expect that the DMT EEF would leave a somewhat fine finish, but NOTHING like a 3 micron waterstone, or ceramic like the Spyderco UF.

The UF leaves a nearly mirror polished edge on the blades I've used it on. I've polished an edge or two with it that did lots of polished blade tricks like treetopping hair from my arm, easily push cutting thin phonebook paper, etc. It's a nice stone for making polished edges.

That being said, polished edges aren't my thing these days. I'd rather have a more "grabby" edge on most blades I sharpen.

Brian.

 

[JD Spydo]

I prefer the ultra fine as a finishing stone. I basically use it instead of a strop.

That's pretty much my answer as well. Because I am getting away from stropping in the traditional set up. I've found that something like Spyderco's Ultra-Fine stones or a super fine Shapton are both great stones to put on a final finish with.

Even the UF stones on the 204 Sharpmaker do a great job. But if you really want to do a deluxe finish they get the Spyderco 302 model, Ultra-Fine Benchstone of the larger 305.

 

[Wowbagger]

No vote.
Get both.
The Ultra Fine for M4
The DMT is a must have for High Vanadium.

Thanks! How sharp does it get the edge? What do you use before the UF?

Go to this link for an example of what the capabilities of the Spyderco Ultra Fine and the right steel (M4) are :
page down my over enthusiastic post at the link until you see the sentence "the most surprising experience I have had so far . . ."
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/edge-taking-as-opposed-to-edge-retention.1551803/#post-17818965

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

I own the DMT EF and the Spyderco UF. I know you are asking about the EEF and not the EF.

DMT plates tend to seem more rough (coarse) than their ratings would indicate. For example, the EF, which is 9 micron leaves a scratch pattern that's more like a 20 micron belt/stone. I believe this is because of the pointy shape of the diamonds which makes them dig more deeply into the material they are grinding. Others have pointed out that the fact the diamonds are fixed in place and do not move (like a more friable stone) magnifies this effect also.

I would expect that the DMT EEF would leave a somewhat fine finish, but NOTHING like a 3 micron waterstone, or ceramic like the Spyderco UF.

The UF leaves a nearly mirror polished edge on the blades I've used it on. I've polished an edge or two with it that did lots of polished blade tricks like treetopping hair from my arm, easily push cutting thin phonebook paper, etc. It's a nice stone for making polished edges.

That being said, polished edges aren't my thing these days. I'd rather have a more "grabby" edge on most blades I sharpen.

Brian.

Does the UF work on high vanadium steels such as 20cv or s30v? Thanks! If it does, does it tear the carbides out?

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

No vote.
Get both.
The Ultra Fine for M4
The DMT is a must have for High Vanadium.

Go to this link for an example of what the capabilities of the Spyderco Ultra Fine and the right steel (M4) are :
page down my over enthusiastic post at the link until you see the sentence "the most surprising experience I have had so far . . ."
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/edge-taking-as-opposed-to-edge-retention.1551803/#post-17818965

So does the UF not work with the Hugh vanadium steels?

 

[Wowbagger]

So does the UF not work with the Hugh vanadium steels?

You will get a very sharp edge but it will be weak and disappointing in use.
It took a while for the patient people here to bang it through my head but here it is :
The Vanadium Carbides are harder than the ceramic stone.
so
the ceramic can not cut or shape the Vanadium Carbides to any significant degree.
You will be pushing the matrix of steel that the Vanadium Carbides are sitting in around (called burnishing) but to get a superior DURABLE edge you will need to cut and shape them and that means diamonds; nothing much else is really hard enough to do the job.

That slight burnishing effect on the M4 works miracles on that steel though. Diamond just tends to leave a more scratchy surface. It is hard to explain but I prefer the ceramic for the M4 and use the Diamonds on the Vanadium Carbides as an only choice.

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

You will get a very sharp edge but it will be weak and disappointing in use.
It took a while for the patient people here to bang it through my head but here it is :
The Vanadium Carbides are harder than the ceramic stone.
so
the ceramic can not cut or shape the Vanadium Carbides to any significant degree.
You will be pushing the matrix of steel that the Vanadium Carbides are sitting in around (called burnishing) but to get a superior DURABLE edge you will need to cut and shape them and that means diamonds; nothing much else is really hard enough to do the job.

That slight burnishing effect on the M4 works miracles on that steel though. Diamond just tends to leave a more scratchy surface. It is hard to explain but I prefer the ceramic for the M4 and use the Diamonds on the Vanadium Carbides as an only choice.

I’m probably going to be just like you learning to understand it! Thanks for the info!

 

[Wowbagger]

learning to understand it!

Go to this Link >>>>> and page down to the bottom of the last chart. Note the hardness of Vanadium Carbide, Diamond and about the closest to the Vanadium Carbide in sharpening stone material is Silicon Carbide (note it isn't as hard as Vanadium Carbide).

And here is another link to sharpening high Vanadium Carbide edge tools.
Link>>>>>

And here is a very good thread Link >>>>

And finally drive yourself nuts trying to understand both sides of this one Link >>>>
Keep in mind with this one though that whittling hair means it is sharp but the proof of the pudding is when one uses that sharp edge to cut challenging and somewhat abrasive materials. In my job I have to trim hard rubber that is in fact a kind of brake pad material.

If I sharpen a high Vanadium blade such as S110V on the Shapton Glass stones I get an edge that easily whittles hair but after a day or two the edge has gotten so degraded that I can not trim the edges of the material in a controlled way meaning the blade rises out of the cut and skips or when I angle the knife toward the material it digs in and stops rather than trims smoothly and consistently.

If I sharpen a high Vanadium blade such as S110V on the DMT diamond stones I get an edge that easily whittles hair and the edge looses that whittling ability in the first couple of days BUT I can trim the edges of the material in a controlled way smoothly and consistently for weeks afterward.

This is a huge difference in the strength of the edge. I say strength because the trimming puts a side loading on the edge and the burnished matrix edge off the non diamond stones is weaker and doesn't hold up.
Some have done rope cutting tests and found coarse edges sharpened on non diamond stones to work well for rope. They have basically created a micro saw. I would like to see them do the hard rubber trimming that I have to do with that saw edge.

PS : be aware of the newest diamond stones that are more like water stones. They are called Resin Bonded Diamond stones and are the way to go now.

 

[PeterS84]

I would recommend the DMT EEF if you're planning to buy just one or the other. I have both and use both regularly. Just did some hand sharpening a couple days ago in which my progression was DMT Course -> Fine -> EEF -> Spyderco UF -> strop. The Ultra fine is a nice stone but I don't think it replaces the DMT EEF, especially on vanadium heavy steels.

 

[samuraistuart]

I agree with Peter. I have both stones, and the UF stone is SLOOOOW. The EEF diamond plate is going to be technically close in grit to the UF ceramic stone, but in reality isn't as fine. But it cuts a lot faster, I prefer it over the Spyderco ceramic, especially with steels that have harder carbides in them like CPM M4, or a LOT of moderately hard carbides like ZDP189. For me it is a no brainer. If it's only going to be one stone, get the EEF DMT.

 

[JD Spydo]

Hey guys this kind of brings up a subject that I've been dreading to talk about. With all these new Supersteels and new steels with alloys that produce super hard carbides I'm beginning to wonder if Spyderco's great ceramic sharpening stones are about to become obsolete? >> or anybody else's for that matter? Because that has been the case for Arkansas Stones (novaculite) for instance because the only Arkansas Stone ( novaculite) that I have that I still use is my extremely dense Arkansas "Blue-Black" stone. It's about the hardest one I've ever had but it's only good for a final edge and it kind of works like a strop so to speak. Bottom line is Arkansas ( novaculite) stones are obsolete for the most part. You could say that for most natural sharpening stones as well.

Are we getting into a new "steel age" to where only "diamond" will be the only abrasive we will be able to rely on???? Because the progress I've seen with these new supersteels is nothing short of mind-blowing. Take my M390 Spyderco Military model for instance. It laughs at most stones I try to hone it with. I can use something like my Spyderco Ultra-Fine to hone a final edge with but most of the time it takes diamond to do any serious abrading with. I would think at some point they are going to have the improve their ceramic stones and many other man made sharpening stones as well

The only gripe I have against diamond is that it just doesn't give you that super smooth edge like an Ultra-Fine stones or one of Shapton's super fine stones can sometimes achieve. I hope I'm not getting off track but this is something that starting to concern me. I'm going to be really careful about any sharpening tool I purchase in the near future.

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

Go to this Link >>>>> and page down to the bottom of the last chart. Note the hardness of Vanadium Carbide, Diamond and about the closest to the Vanadium Carbide in sharpening stone material is Silicon Carbide (note it isn't as hard as Vanadium Carbide).

And here is another link to sharpening high Vanadium Carbide edge tools.
Link>>>>>

And here is a very good thread Link >>>>

And finally drive yourself nuts trying to understand both sides of this one Link >>>>
Keep in mind with this one though that whittling hair means it is sharp but the proof of the pudding is when one uses that sharp edge to cut challenging and somewhat abrasive materials. In my job I have to trim hard rubber that is in fact a kind of brake pad material.

If I sharpen a high Vanadium blade such as S110V on the Shapton Glass stones I get an edge that easily whittles hair but after a day or two the edge has gotten so degraded that I can not trim the edges of the material in a controlled way meaning the blade rises out of the cut and skips or when I angle the knife toward the material it digs in and stops rather than trims smoothly and consistently.

If I sharpen a high Vanadium blade such as S110V on the DMT diamond stones I get an edge that easily whittles hair and the edge looses that whittling ability in the first couple of days BUT I can trim the edges of the material in a controlled way smoothly and consistently for weeks afterward.

This is a huge difference in the strength of the edge. I say strength because the trimming puts a side loading on the edge and the burnished matrix edge off the non diamond stones is weaker and doesn't hold up.
Some have done rope cutting tests and found coarse edges sharpened on non diamond stones to work well for rope. They have basically created a micro saw. I would like to see them do the hard rubber trimming that I have to do with that saw edge.

PS : be aware of the newest diamond stones that are more like water stones. They are called Resin Bonded Diamond stones and are the way to go now.

So will the DMT EEF give a hair whittling edge? Also, if I buy the spyderco Sharpmaker ultra fine rods, which I know are quite small, could I use it as a finishing stone on the flat part? Also, if I use 5 micron 3 micron 1 micron and 0.( micron diamond pastes, how polished would me edge be. Thanks.

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

So will the DMT EEF give a hair whittling edge? Also, if I buy the spyderco Sharpmaker ultra fine rods, which I know are quite small, could I use it as a finishing stone on the flat part? Also, if I use 5 micron 3 micron 1 micron and 0.5 micron diamond pastes, how polished would me edge be. Thanks.

 

[Wowbagger]

So will the DMT EEF give a hair whittling edge?

Maybe I wasn't clear but . . . yes . . . that was what I was attempting to say when I typed :

If I sharpen a high Vanadium blade such as S110V on the DMT diamond stones I get an edge that easily whittles hair and the edge looses that whittling ability in the first couple of days BUTI can trim the edges of the material in a controlled way smoothly and consistently for weeks afterward.

PS : To get to that edge I worked through a progression of four or five diamond stones ending with the DMT EEF.
The DMT EEF that I use is listed as equivalent to 8,000 grit.
Some of the larger stones I have purchased after that seem more coarse. In the Fine and the Extra Fine respectively to my very small DMT stones.
Here is a link with photos where I rant about that
Link>>>>

 

[KnifeCarsen10]

Maybe I wasn't clear but . . . yes . . . that was what I was attempting to say when I typed :

Thanks.

 

[Wowbagger]

If it's only going to be one stone

Keep in mind the Spyderco triangle rod that I was talking about can be had (for just one) for around $10 to $14.
Won't break the bank to get both.
I use it like this; photos at this Link>>>> be sure to page down.
The corner of the triangle speeds things up because there is a high amount of pressure generated because of the extremely low surface area then I refine with the flats of the Triangle. Our man Sal is no dummy