DMT Extra Extra-Fine as a "Strop" for Burr Removal?

[AFAustin]

Most of my knives are traditional slipjoints or small lockbacks, and a lot of them have softer stainless steel, e.g., Case's Tru Sharp 420HC. They will take a very fine edge but sometimes can develop a really stubborn burr. When that happens, I'll try all the usual methods of burr removal: progressively light strokes on Spyderco UF rods; a couple of higher angle passes; drawing through cork or hard felt; stropping on denim with a variety of compounds, etc. But I'd love to find something quicker and more effective.

I've seen David (OWE) and others talk about diamonds having the advantage of leaving minimal or no burrs, which made me wonder about another possible method. My soft steel knives don't need the coarser diamonds for routine sharpening, but when those stubborn burrs happen, what about using a DMT Extra Extra-Fine pocket stone? They are rated as 8000 mesh/3 micron. Unfortunately, very few DMT stones are available in the Extra-Extra Fine. But there is a 4-inch "Diamond Whetstone" with the interrupted surface. I've never used DMT's interrupted surface stones, and it seems like it might be awkward to use them with edge leading strokes on small, thin, pointy traditional slipjoints. But what about using one as a "strop" with a few edge trailing strokes? Might that defeat the stubborn burrs?

Thanks for any advice.

Andrew

 

[Bob6794]

The interrupted surface isn't really a issue from my experience. There were a few times when I caught the tip in one when I first started using them but it hasn't happened since. I would say give it a shot and see if it works for you.

 

[bucketstove]

Hi,

Most of my knives are traditional slipjoints or small lockbacks, and a lot of them have softer stainless steel, e.g., Case's Tru Sharp 420HC. They will take a very fine edge but sometimes can develop a really stubborn burr. When that happens, I'll try all the usual methods of burr removal: progressively light strokes on Spyderco UF rods; a couple of higher angle passes; drawing through cork or hard felt; stropping on denim with a variety of compounds, etc. But I'd love to find something quicker and more effective.

I've seen David (OWE) and others talk about diamonds having the advantage of leaving minimal or no burrs, which made me wonder about another possible method. My soft steel knives don't need the coarser diamonds for routine sharpening, but when those stubborn burrs happen, what about using a DMT Extra Extra-Fine pocket stone? They are rated as 8000 mesh/3 micron. Unfortunately, very few DMT stones are available in the Extra-Extra Fine. But there is a 4-inch "Diamond Whetstone" with the interrupted surface. I've never used DMT's interrupted surface stones, and it seems like it might be awkward to use them with edge leading strokes on small, thin, pointy traditional slipjoints. But what about using one as a "strop" with a few edge trailing strokes? Might that defeat the stubborn burrs?

Thanks for any advice.

Andrew

Hi,
how much force are you using on the ultrafine rods? you're going as light as possible right?

Spyderco ultrafine is too fine to remove burrs, especially stubborn ones
alternating double angle edge leading passes will remove any burrs you have,
just have to use a coarser stone than spyderco ultrafine
like the spyderco medium


edge trailing strokes promote burr

 

[DavidHoback]

Any stone, diamond, ceramic or natural & interrupted or solid.. Will do a fine job stropping! But I will give you some advice. If you are having trouble taking off the burr on 420J with a standard strop w/ green compound, then I would wager you are pushing up too much bevel burr. You really shouldn't have any trouble knocking off standard burr with a normal strop. If you are, go back to the stone, and bring it down conventional. Then go on to the strop. Just my advice.

 

[bucketstove]

Any stone, diamond, ceramic or natural & interrupted or solid.. Will do a fine job stropping! But I will give you some advice. If you are having trouble taking off the burr on 420J with a standard strop w/ green compound, then I would wager you are pushing up too much bevel burr. You really shouldn't have any trouble knocking off standard burr with a normal strop. If you are, go back to the stone, and bring it down conventional. Then go on to the strop. Just my advice.

hehe "standard burr" ... thats like standard fingernails right? 3.8 inches right?

 

[HeavyHanded]

Avoid trailing passes on fixed abrasive to finish. A small polishing grade waterstone is a better choice.

A few light leading passes on a microbevel with EEF DMT would work better.

The easiest way to deal with burrs is to use a stone with a softer composition - they develop smaller and are easier to remove when they do form. On ceramics you are left with using very light pressure and slight angle elevation.

A harder strop or hybrid strop also works well. A slurry of oil and honing compound on hardwood, thin paper over a hard surface dosed with abrasive.

 

[Twindog]

The best way to remove a burr is with edge-leading strokes of a stone -- but very, very short strokes, no more than a quarter inch long.

Once I get a burr raised the full length of the blade, I use very short, light strokes with the stone to remove it. If you continue with a long stroke, you'll recreate the burr on the other side. This recreation gives the impression that the burr is flipping from one side to the other, but it isn't with edge-leading strokes. You're chopping off the burr and then recreating a new burr on the other side.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Most of my knives are traditional slipjoints or small lockbacks, and a lot of them have softer stainless steel, e.g., Case's Tru Sharp 420HC. They will take a very fine edge but sometimes can develop a really stubborn burr. When that happens, I'll try all the usual methods of burr removal: progressively light strokes on Spyderco UF rods; a couple of higher angle passes; drawing through cork or hard felt; stropping on denim with a variety of compounds, etc. But I'd love to find something quicker and more effective.

I've seen David (OWE) and others talk about diamonds having the advantage of leaving minimal or no burrs, which made me wonder about another possible method. My soft steel knives don't need the coarser diamonds for routine sharpening, but when those stubborn burrs happen, what about using a DMT Extra Extra-Fine pocket stone? They are rated as 8000 mesh/3 micron. Unfortunately, very few DMT stones are available in the Extra-Extra Fine. But there is a 4-inch "Diamond Whetstone" with the interrupted surface. I've never used DMT's interrupted surface stones, and it seems like it might be awkward to use them with edge leading strokes on small, thin, pointy traditional slipjoints. But what about using one as a "strop" with a few edge trailing strokes? Might that defeat the stubborn burrs?

Thanks for any advice.

Andrew

Just stick with very, very light edge-leading on the diamond hone. Keep the angle conservatively low, just raising it enough to feel the apex lightly kiss the abrasive, and the blade in an edge-leading, but always-tip-trailing orientation, to minimize catching the pointy tips on small blades if using the interrupted surface hones. The tip should come off the hone still pointing away from the direction of the stroke. With the appropriate light touch, any burr remnants left over should be easily cleaned up with a few light stropping passes on bare leather, denim, etc. If they're still too heavy to remove that way, some more featherlight edge-leading passes should reduce them further, before going back to the bare leather or denim. That's how I finish off anything I've done on a diamond hone, in particular. Literally any steel, it hasn't mattered. Personally, I wouldn't attempt edge-trailing on a diamond hone or most any other hard stone, as it's usually been counterproductive for me and hasn't been as effective at removing burrs.


David

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I benefited from edge leading technique from David & Martin. My personal deburring stone is a worn DMT EEF (from Luong).
Let me share my method regarding tips got stuck into holes: careful strokes that end the tip on the flats nearing the end of stone. Be careful because holding the stone with my other hand, my finger is right there .
David's tip sounds good too, so the blade is angled 45° like what Martin prefers. I unconsciously used it too, sometimes.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I benefited from edge leading technique from David & Martin. My personal deburring stone is a worn DMT EEF (from Luong).
Let me share my method regarding tips got stuck into holes: careful strokes that end the tip on the flats nearing the end of stone. Be careful because holding the stone with my other hand, my finger is right there .
David's tip sounds good too, so the blade is angled 45° like what Martin prefers. I unconsciously used it too, sometimes.

I forgot to include and emphasize that point in my post. I still hugely favor holding the hone in the fingertips of one hand, and knife in the other, for finishing & de-burring strokes. The ability to dial down pressure laterally against the apex is what makes the biggest difference in minimizing burrs and thinning them to a finer degree, and I find that much easier to do when utilizing the feel in my fingertips from both sides (hone & blade). That sensitive feel and resulting lighter touch is what will make the burrs fragile enough to clean up with very light passes on bare leather or denim. In fact, I usually just do this on my jeans when finishing up.


David

 

[AFAustin]

Thank you, gentlemen, for your insight and advice. As always, it is very helpful and much appreciated.

Andrew

 

[sai123]

The best way to remove a burr is with edge-leading strokes of a stone -- but very, very short strokes, no more than a quarter inch long.

Once I get a burr raised the full length of the blade, I use very short, light strokes with the stone to remove it. If you continue with a long stroke, you'll recreate the burr on the other side. This recreation gives the impression that the burr is flipping from one side to the other, but it isn't with edge-leading strokes. You're chopping off the burr and then recreating a new burr on the other side.

I'm reviving this thread, because I desperately try to deburr on sub 1000 stones (Naniwa 400/800) and I just can't seem to get it right. On a Spyderco medium it works decently with a single stroke on both sides, slightly elevated angle. But on coarser stones I tried for hours (literally) without success. If I do ultra short strokes, do I work on the edge in sections or do I still draw the whole edge across the stone while only moving a quarter of an inch forward?

 

[HeavyHanded]

I'm reviving this thread, because I desperately try to deburr on sub 1000 stones (Naniwa 400/800) and I just can't seem to get it right. On a Spyderco medium it works decently with a single stroke on both sides, slightly elevated angle. But on coarser stones I tried for hours (literally) without success. If I do ultra short strokes, do I work on the edge in sections or do I still draw the whole edge across the stone while only moving a quarter of an inch forward?

Try a pass at elevated angle then follow with a pass or two at the original angle. Burr formation and removal is heavily influenced by the steel type, but in general doubling the working angle makes it harder for the burr to flip. Important, you don't want it to flip too many times or it will flop with increasing ease = tougher and tougher to cleanly remove. With very coarse stones getting 100% burr removal is almost impossible, but you can clean it up good along the high spots.

Use a shorter pass, an inch or so. Check after each pass to see if it is getting smaller or has flipped. Remember, its attachment point is strongest when first formed. If it flips too many times you're better off starting over.

 

[Twindog]

I'm reviving this thread, because I desperately try to deburr on sub 1000 stones (Naniwa 400/800) and I just can't seem to get it right. On a Spyderco medium it works decently with a single stroke on both sides, slightly elevated angle. But on coarser stones I tried for hours (literally) without success. If I do ultra short strokes, do I work on the edge in sections or do I still draw the whole edge across the stone while only moving a quarter of an inch forward?

The burr is about geometry and mechanics. The burr will grow faster the coarser the stone, the longer the stroke, the more pressure on the stone and the steeper the angle.

If you have a burr, you're at the apex. So now you just have to remove it. With an edge-leading stroke at the same angle as the edge, a short, light stroke will cut off the old burr.

Don't raise the angle, because that will create a micro-bevel and raise a new burr very fast -- especially with a coarse-grit stone. Use the same angle.

Here's how it works:

Above: Picture one (on the left) shows the stone at the proper edge angle, with the burr formed on the other side of the edge. You can see the burr has to lean off to the other side because the stone would prevent it from leaning any other way.

Picture two, shows you switching the stone to the other side of the edge to cut off the burr. If you have the stone angle correct, you can see that the burr cannot flip.


Below: Picture three (on left) shows the burr being cut off very quickly. It has no where else to go. This is where you stop the stone stroke.

Picture four shows a new burr forming on the other side of the edge if you continue your stroke. People think they have flipped the burr, but they have instead just created a new burr. This process can go on forever. With finer grits and lighter pressure, the burr gets smaller and smaller, making people think it has gone. But it has just gotten smaller.

 

[sai123]

What amount of pressure are we talking about on the final stroke? I'll have to put a knife on a scale to get a value. I think I still put too much pressure on it, even though I can't imagine going any lighter.
Another thing I'm thinking about: When I decrease the pressure to almost zero, the scratches will also get finer and finer, can't I just use a finer stone then and make it easier for myself to not overgrind?
How do I keep an ultra aggressive edge and still deburr properly?

 

[HeavyHanded]

What amount of pressure are we talking about on the final stroke? I'll have to put a knife on a scale to get a value. I think I still put too much pressure on it, even though I can't imagine going any lighter.
Another thing I'm thinking about: When I decrease the pressure to almost zero, the scratches will also get finer and finer, can't I just use a finer stone then and make it easier for myself to not overgrind?
How do I keep an ultra aggressive edge and still deburr properly?

As light as possible, imagine trying to brush the burr off. I used to routinely use 60 and 80 grit edges on my work knives. The elevated pass is only to remove the burr, then drop back down to the original working angle.

Also, when applying the grind to an edge with a very coarse stone that is going to be your finish grit, avoid making a large burr to begin with. Raise small burr, flip, switch back to first side- elevate spine and lightly brush off the burr. Check every pass and only hit those spots that still have a burr. If it flipped, swap sides and do the same thing. Is possible once the burr is almost all the way gone to remove the last bit at the original working angle, but is FAR easier to eliminate it at a higher angle. As long as the burr is still present you are not microbeveling anything, the burr in fact prevents this as its the highest thing to make contact with the stone.

Stropping on plain paper over the same stone, using a fair amount of force, will shine up any smaller burrs for final removal.

The other possibility and one you alluded to, is to use a very coarse stone and jump to a very fine one to deburr/microbevel. If you only use a few passes you will wind up with an edge that is smaller across the cutting edge due to less side to side variation, even though it is no longer as acute it will be "sharper" and still have a lot of up and down variation. I use this approach often.

 

[sai123]

As light as possible, imagine trying to brush the burr off. I used to routinely use 60 and 80 grit edges on my work knives. The elevated pass is only to remove the burr, then drop back down to the original working angle.

Also, when applying the grind to an edge with a very coarse stone that is going to be your finish grit, avoid making a large burr to begin with. Raise small burr, flip, switch back to first side- elevate spine and lightly brush off the burr. Check every pass and only hit those spots that still have a burr. If it flipped, swap sides and do the same thing. Is possible once the burr is almost all the way gone to remove the last bit at the original working angle, but is FAR easier to eliminate it at a higher angle. As long as the burr is still present you are not microbeveling anything, the burr in fact prevents this as its the highest thing to make contact with the stone.

Wow, I think that was what I needed. Before I let the blade sit on the stone and actively lifted it up a bit, now I'm gliding over it imagining a plane landing or as you said "brush" the stone. Just got the cleanest edge off the 400 stone ever.

 

[Blues]

Wow, I think that was what I needed. Before I let the blade sit on the stone and actively lifted it up a bit, now I'm gliding over it imagining a plane landing or as you said "brush" the stone. Just got the cleanest edge off the 400 stone ever.

"He's not quite so HeavyHanded as he appears."

 

[Alberta Ed]

I find a few light forward strokes on a DMT fine (1200 grit) works very well for finishing an edge and removing the burr.

 

[Blues]

I find a few light forward strokes on a DMT fine (1200 grit) works very well for finishing an edge and removing the burr.

Down here the 1200 is the x-fine. The 600 is rated as fine. Are they labeled differently north of Montana?