DNA evidence of Alexander's army?

Rusty

Rusty

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Blue eyed blonde tribes in North East Pakistan? Spanish Basque blood in the Hunza Valley? Kalash tribes worshiping Zeus?

In northeast Pakistan, near the convergence of China, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan in the Karakoram range, they are finding dna markers from europe, and greek culture. Check out the July 2000 Reader's Digest. Nothing on their knives though.
 
Maybe they were just on a Perillo Tour that went astray.
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Reader's Digest? Didn't know anyone actually read that. Wait, my mom used to back in the 60's.
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Just havin' a little fun, Rusty. No need to unsheath that 12" Sirupati.
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Blues

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Live Free or Die

Blues' Knife Pix
 
Recently they found some remains of a city(?) buried in the middle of the black sea.I havent been able to find anything about this on the web,anyone else read about this?If i recall they found some hand carved wooden fragments,and the fossils found around the area date back 7,000 years,to the melting of the european glaciers.

I love history,id major in it if I could make a living with it
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1. Rusty,

there has been alot of progress in this area recently. The famous "Tarim Mummies" are now known to have constituted, together with the Celts, an early branch off the main Indo-European tree. More relevant to us here, it seems that it may have been relatives of these people, much later, who introduced iron weapon technology into China in the mid 1st mil. BC. See Mair & Mallory, "The Tarim Mummies" and Barber, "The Mummies of Urumchi" for the latest linguistic and archaeological theories. See Sforza, "Language, Genes, & History" for the Basque connection.

2. Robert,

The Black Sea stuff is even more controversial. In '96 Ryan and Pitman publish "Noah's Flood" postulating that the Biblical myth came from an actual flood which turned a previously freshwater lake into the Black Sea when the Bosporus overflowed from the Mediterranean. A major and previously unknown costal civilization was destroyed in the process.

This theory has been substiatiated by Robert Ballard (the Titanic excavator) who has recovered both human and biological evidence proving the flood theory. Naturally, this has got many Bible fundamentalists upset, but hey -- the Truth hurts sometimes!

(Info on this was recently on discovery.com and may still be there.)
 
Blues: if you were sitting in a laundromat long enough you'd eventually read the Readers Digest too.

Come to think of it this reminds me of an incident when an accident at the wilderness school on the rez had news media all over. The school had to post a guard to turn the media around about 2 miles out of the camp, and by the time I ( I was Tribal Compliance Officer and the Tribe's Licensing Dept. And Investigator, and... ) drove thru, the guard was going nuts doing nothing and asked I had anything to read? Well, I searched all over the cab of my pickup, behind the seat, under the seat, glove compartment etc., and all I could find were magazines*. Not a thing to read.


*should note here that a drug plane and I had mistaken each other for someone else a few months earlier on a remote part of the rez. So anyway the magazines weren't Playboy and Newsweek and National Geographic but a mix of AK, AR15, Thompson, Uzi, M1 Carbine, M14... so that whatever I decided to put behind the seat in the morning I'd have ammo for it if the circumstances arose.

And Blues? You just ended up reminding me of the khuks I took up to the Khonvention nearly 3 1/2 weeks ago. I just went out and brought them in. With all the others around the house I'd plumb forgot leavin' 'em out there.
( Oh, BTW, eat your heart out Blues - I just counted 3 Sirupatis, & 2 AK's, and that's just the 12"ers! VESEG )
 
I just can't let this thread pass by...Alexander is a hero of both me and my wife. I have heard about the descendants of Alexander's army in Pakistan. In fact, I first heard of this on a Hellenic studies website. I am intrigued by this. If anyone ever finds any other info, please email me with it if you can. I'd sure appreciate knowing. I have heard the theories about the khukuri being a descendant of the Greek Kopis (the Samnites had a pretty identical weapon called a "falcata"). I think that the theory is probably correct. From my research, the Kopis orginated in ancient Egypt during The Bronze Age. So this type of weapon is, indeed, extremely ancient. I am one of the "lurkers" out there patiently saving my money for one of these fine weapons. Let me say that I am VERY impressed with what I see on the HI websites and what I read here. Let me say that the HI websites (particularly the FAQ site) alone decided the HI khukuri as the one I want to have. I've looked at a few others and none have the "magic" of the HI khukuris. I can see it in the responses of all the good folk here ( I read this HI forum daily.) Ave Alexander...

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
Kevan: welcome to the Cantina. Pull up a chair and prop yer feet up. Don't you dare go sneakin' off til we find out what you know ( and where you know it from ). You already made the hard post!
 
When John Masters was a young Gurkha officer stationed near Quetta in what is now Pakistan he wrote about a particular species of Greek date that grew on the tops of some hills in that area. He surmised that this species of date had been carried as rations by Alexander's army, and the trees marked the places where they had camped.

Best,

Gary_B (in the PNW).
 
The kopis (or "khopesh" as it is called when referring to the ancient Egyptian variant) was so named for it's similarity to the hind leg of an animal( which the khopesh resembles.) This weapon dates back to at least the second millenium BC. What is interesting is it's similarity to ancient Egyptian throwsticks, which are among the most ancient weapons used by the Egyptians. So somewhere along the line, the connection was made to use the shape of this throwstick in the design of a slashing weapon. Perhaps balance was the deciding factor. Now, the first peoples to arrive in the area of Greece (the Myceneaens) did not have the Kopesh (or Kopis as their descendants would call it) among them. It is believed Greece was populated in waves of different peoples (the Minoans being the actual natives.) Not the Myceneaens, but a successive tribe brought the kopis to Greece. The Samnites probably observed it among these same peoples. One thing is for certain: this was one of the most popular of slashing weapons for many thousands of years. I really need to dig out my books to get some precise dates on this info. The Samnites were a peoples living around Rome about 350BC and earlier. These were folks who used the Falcata; their word for the kopis. So this weapon had already been around for quite some time when Rome was still in it's infancy. On a modern note, thanks for the welcome and I'd like to say I sure enjoy reading the posts here. It's great to see such enthusiasm for traditional weapons. I'm looking forward to getting my own HI khukuri.

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
How come most of the bronze age stuff i see is straight swords/spears.I have yet to see an ancient kopi or falcata.Dont take this post the wrong way,im not doubting that they were a popular weapon then,I just want to know WHERE I can see one
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Sir Richard Burton wrote quite extensively on this subject in his History of the Sword. He spends half a chapter talking about Egyptian throwsticks, and in fact Tut Ankh-Amun was interred with a box of throwsticks and returning boomerangs. I have a book about that somewhere, I cant remember the title and author off-hand but if anyone wants more info I will be glad to check my library when I get home. If you make it to London, the V&A museum has a fine collection of early bronze age weaponry, from all over Europe and Asia.

Kevan, you wont regret investing in an HI khuk - the only problem is I bet you wont be able to stop at just one!

Best,

Gary_B (in the PNW).
 
For a look at the ancient Egyptian khopesh, check out the Osprey Elite Series #40 book titled "New Kingdom Egypt." For some good illustrations of Greek kopis' and Samnite/Dii falcatas, get the book "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry. This book has lots of great information and illustrations. I forgot to mention earlier that the CeltIberians were using the falcata also. In the book "Warlords" by Tim Newark, there's a picture of a specimen dating between the first and fourth century BC. This one is made of iron. And I'm sure I won't be able to stop at just one Khukuri either! Thanks all.

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
I think I heard somewhere ( maybe even on this forum ) that the romans or even greeks went to the gladius and leaf shaped sword ala the celts due to development of the "shield wall". BTW Kevan, thanks for posting the info. We seem to be picking up interest here, too, thanks. Absolutely amazing how much you can learn when you aren't convinced that you already know it all.

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Cropping the ears of a jackass doesn't give him any horse sense.

Himalayan Imports Website



[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 09-18-2000).]
 
Yes, it wa the Romans who went to the gladius. This was the first large, professional army to train it's men as swordsmen. The Greeks also used the shield wall, but in their "phalanx" formation, they used their spears. The Greek hoplon shield was also very different from the Roman scutum shield. When you look at the scutum, you see some very shrewd tactical technology. The army of Alexander used sarissas, a spear of about 12 feet long, and could arrange their formations in flanking manuevers to engage the enemy accordingly. I would guess that many of these phalanx formations would use their disciplined close-order as an initial shock to break up the enemy's formation. Then there would be a general melee. Here, we would see the value of the kopis, swung in wide arcs. Particularly valuable as well to detroy an enemy's shield or smash through his helmet. The enemy wouldn't be able to wield a sword without his sword arm attached! I believe the difference between the hoplon and the scutum is one of the things that allowed the Romans to use a thrusting sword, as well as their peculiar javelin, the pilum. All in all, the kopis family of weapons is a highly-effective and time-proven design. There's something about it that grabs a guy, too. Perhaps genetic memories? At any rate, thanks Rusty for this thread and giving me the chance to jump in here and making me welcome. I look forward to more great conversation. "The question is not wich khukuri to buy. The question is which ones and in what order!" Ave Alexander!!

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Kevan "Raven" Taylor-Perry
 
Kev,
I believe Sparta used the short sword to great use before the Romans.True, they used it in conjunction with their long spears, but
in mine & others opinions they were probably the"Best" pure soldiers there ever were! One on one with a sword,i would put my money on them! Man, what they could have done with a K!
jim
 
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