Do I need better sharpening tools or just better sharpening skills?

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doubledges

Joined
Feb 6, 2012
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Ok so I am using an inexpensive (although decent quality) set of course/fine diamond stones, along with a basic ceramic rod and a plain leather strop, as my sharpening system. I can sharpen a knife to where it will slice phonebook paper but can't make a consistent, clean push cut. Would a better set of stones (DMT course/fine or maybe a extra fine/extra extra fine) or a DMT strop paste help me reach this final level of sharpness I want, or should I be able to do this with the setup I am currently using?

Clarification: what I mean when I said push cut is just holding the paper in one place, if I hold the paper on either side of the cut, I can cleanly push cut all day but my blades always hangup if I hold the paper in only one place. (I'm more than a little OCD about this, I know)
 
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You should be able to get a great edge with your current equipment. Study the basics, make sure you're apexing the edge, creating a burr, etc...
 
Your equipment is fine. You can get a knife respectably sharp with a DMT Fine alone. The EF and further simply puts the icing on the cake. Personally, I think you're doing fine. The clean (no catching) push cut through paper... If you can do that, you've achieved pinnacle skill. That's a practice, practice, practice situation. You need experience to really know what you might not be doing optimally right now. I used to think sharpening a knife was easier than what it really takes to get a knife as sharp as you want to get it. My perspective has changed as my skills have advanced. It's not easy and it takes time. Read this, there is some sage advice in there:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ng-a-consistent-angle?p=12802219#post12802219
 
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alfred mcdougal said:
Your equipment is fine. You can get a knife respectably sharp with a DMT Fine alone. The EF and further simply puts the icing on the cake. Personally, I think you're doing fine. The clean (no catching) push cut through paper... If you can do that, you've achieved pinnacle skill. That's a practice, practice, practice situation. You need experience to really know what you might not be doing optimally right now. I used to think sharpening a knife was easier than what it really takes to get a knife as sharp as you want to get it. My perspective has changed as my skills have advanced. It's not easy and it takes time. Read this, there is some sage advice in there:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ng-a-consistent-angle?p=12802219#post12802219
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How much of a tolerance is there for inconsistent angle holding? I think I'm doing quite well at that but I'm not sure how to know for sure if my angle holding is, well, holding me back (no pun intended). Also, I can't get a burr to form on the ceramic rod, I don't know if ceramic is supposed to be able to do that or not.
 
Probably 2-4 degrees. I can't say for sure because I've never measured myself. I think even the steadiest of hands will rock 1-3 degrees throughout the process. What's important is keeping the apex and as much of the bevel as possible (that's what the marker trick is for, to monitor bevel contact) scraping against the abrasive surface at all times.

doubledges said:
Also, I can't get a burr to form on the ceramic rod, I don't know if ceramic is supposed to be able to do that or not.
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Use your coarser surfaces to raise the burr. Ceramic is further down the line.
 
You will create a burr... It's just not as noticeable as the diamond stones. If the burr is not being created then you have not fully apexed your edge.
 
So the coarse stone raises the burr and as I move to smoother and smoother abrasives, the burr should go away?
 
I would remove the burr after each stone with a few light alternating strokes. You should be raising the burr at each grit before progressing. That tells you that you have apexed at each grit. Raise the burr on each side of the edge. Make sure you alternate sides equally(strokes/time) to keep an even bevel

The burr gets finer/smaller as you progress through the grits. Making it harder to notice
 
kwazyjuice said:
I would remove the burr after each stone with a few light alternating strokes. You should be raising the burr at each grit before progressing. That tells you that you have apexed at each grit.

The burr gets finer/smaller as you progress through the grits. Making it harder to notice
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Ok I obviously need to pay more attention to this topic since I don't really know jack about burrs. It's actually kind of amazing that I was sharpening as well as I have been without doing this right. I used to just alternate 10 strokes per side until the edge looked good to me and then moved to the next grit.
 
Well you're doing good! Obviously you're creating sharp edges just fine. You just don't understand the technical side of sharpening yet. Neither do I. Still learning. Just sharing the knowledge I do know so far :) Haha!

It's not a systematic thing, such as number of strokes or time on spent. But it's what the edge does while you sharpen/hone it. There are some great stickies and references here. I suggest reading them to understand the process more. There is tons to learn here, it's a great place to start and ask questions.

Some of these guys talk about stuff that's beyond me.... But the more I read, ask, talk, and sharpen it all comes together. I will reference some good threads when I find them.
 
Yeah I think I have the basics down and can consistently hone a good, sharp, useable edge, but I'm just really OCD about reaching a clean, consistent push cut. Could you just explain exactly what you do on each grit and how you make sure to clear the burr? Specifically, what do you after you create a burr? I'm thinking that this technique may get my knives that extra touch sharper than my old technique.
 
Yes you are correct! I am trying to find an thread that talks about this in depth and is very informative. Exactly what you need
 
When you initially raise the burr, think of it as starting over. The reason I pointed out use your coarser surfaces first is because that's what they are designed for, to cut deeper into the metal in order to (re)form it. It's like forming the initial geometry, IE "setting the bevel". What you're doing is pushing/scraping your old apex away... the old apex that is wavy, rounded, and micro chipped. After you have formed a new ruff burr, what you are doing from there is smoothing it out.

I can tell you if you are only doing 10 passes before moving on, you're probably not scraping long enough. For a point of reference... 440C is the softest/most-malleable steel I work with. I usually have to do 20-25 passes on each stone (lite strokes!). A2, twice as many passes.

Wait for one of the advanced guys to comment. In the mean time, watch knifenut's video in the thread I linked to.
 
Not cleaning burr off completely, probably. Equipment is fine. i would say probably work on finishing: very light pressure, lots of light back honing.
 
Thanks everybody. Extremely helpful info. What would be a good process/technique for sharpening without raising a burr? Seems to me like the entire process is easier if there's a good, effective method that avoids burr formation as much as possible.
 
alfred mcdougal said:
I can tell you if you are only doing 10 passes before moving on, you're probably not scraping long enough. For a point of reference... 440C is the softest/most-malleable steel I work with. I usually have to do 20-25 passes on each stone (lite strokes!). A2, twice as many passes.
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I was running more than just 10 strokes per side before changing grits, what I meant was I would do 10 per side 2 or 3 times, so 20-30 total strokes per side per grit. Sorry I should have made that more clear.
 
Double edge,

Sounds like you have some pretty good sharpening skills
Check the OCD....
 
neeman said:
Double edge,

Sounds like you have some pretty good sharpening skills
Check the OCD....
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that my desire to get that extra touch of sharpness out of my knives is purely OCD, there is a functional benefit from that, especially for a knife nut.
 
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