Do we tend to overlook imperfections on custom knives?

David1967

David1967

Joined
May 10, 1999
Messages
2,769
I was just wondering.....
I bought several custom knives only because I heard good things about the makers and their knives (mostly on this forum). I had no chance to handle the knives before I ordered them – but now (with the experience I got) I would not order the knives unseen anymore. Why? Because the knifemakers were described as perfectionists and the products perfect in every way. Yet I was able to find imperfections: terrible lock, unfinished parts of the blade (those that are not normally visible), scales not fitted correctly, bolsters not lined with liners....etc etc. Except one case the knives functioned well but were far from perfect. Yet I read only praise for those knifemakers and noone is complaining. It is difficult for me to think that only the knives I received were faulty and all the rest are OK. I eventually sold all the knives I did not like (had them fixed before selling by a local knifemaker) but bitterness remains ....

So my question is: Do we tend to overlook the knifemakers errors? Are we afraid of posting negative feedback on this (and other) forums in order not to become a subject of flaming from other – more loyal customers? Why don´t we warn other members?

Your thoughts?

David

/edited for spelling../;)
 
David,

I too have ordered knives from makers (that I have not dealt with before) site unseen on reputation alone. The fact is that I have had the same experience. If I were you, I would just contact the maker, explain what you have observed in the piece and send it back for either improvement or if you are soured on it, a refund. Every maker that I have dealt with has been reasonable about satisfying their customer. Even if you decide not to keep the knife. This may not always be the case with EVERY maker, but it has been my experience.

Most makers are interested in improving their skill at producing quality work. I would not be bashful about speaking up and satisfying your search for quality custom knives.

If you get a bad reception, then you know this is not the maker to deal with. It is either that or you have to go to alot of shows. The most you are out is shipping..

;)
 
Unfortunately, you are not alone. That is one of the problems when using recommendations off the forums. What is perfection for one person, may not be for another. Magazines are also guilty of the same thing. When was the last time you read a review that actually offered any true insight into the finer points of knife construction? I have also owned many knives that were reputed to offer "perfect" fit & finish. They didn't.

I remember getting my first BM 970, and thought to myself, how can a knife be any better than this. A couple years later I got a Sebenza and it absolutely blew the BM out of the water. Perfection is simply dependent on the level of quality you are used to seeing.

I do agree though, more people need to give honest impressions of the maker's work. Most maker's would like to hear some constructive critism. If they don't, they should.

There is also the point that you should not expect perfection in a $400 folder. It might be very close, but chances are you will always find something a little off.
 
David,
That's too bad - would second Bob's comments about contacting maker if have problem with a knife - all the makers I have dealt with will go the extra step to make things right and have the customer happy - if they don't then you know where they go! Normally you can get a good reading on makers by the comments on the various forums and by the dealers who carry their work. If they fall short on a particular knife let them know - think you'll find they will do everything they can to make it right - they have a reputation to protect and if they work through dealers they can get dropped very quickly. Also can be very rewarding getting to know them and talking knives. My take on the situation.

Bill
 
Thank you guys for your responses....

Yes, I contacted the makers and in one case I shipped the knife back (when it came back it needed fixing again :( ).. but remember - I am not in US. (Insured) shipping can be between 60-100 USD (both ways) and then there are custom fees and VAT (33%). IMO knives (folders) in 500 USD range should be perfect (well 99% perfect ;)). The maker should have better eye for errors than the customer and should expect the customer knows knives.
Over the years I learned that mmost knife dealers know their stuff :D so I check their web sites. If they do not cary the maker (I do not care what Blade magazine says) I am not interested. Les Robertson (among others) was a great source of info fo me in that regard....

David
 
David,

Perfection is a pretty high bar to cross and we all have different sensitivity levels to variations in tolerance. It is reasonable to demand that custom pieces be finished to a higher degree then similar production knives, and it is reasonable to expect that a maker will deliver the same standard of fit and finish as is typical for that maker's work. As long as both of these conditions are met I would probably call the knife "perfect." But, absolute prefection is something else. Perhaps you are simply working with the wrong makers, or you are not making your priorities clear enough. You can certainly demand and get a higher grade of finish, but you can also expect to pay for it.

Work with your favorite knife makers to see what they can do for you. It is just a question of getting their expectations aligned with yours. Most of them would be happy to work with you to fix the problem.

n2s
 
I used to be really embarassed about sending knives back, but that has changed since I've spoken with many makers and collectors. If it's some minor little ditzle that you only notice under a magnifying glass, them I'm inclined to let it go. If it's a functional issue, or a serious fit and finish problem....BACK YA GO! I've been burned a few times on eBay, where unfortunately there is little recourse, but the makers have always fixed the problem for a nominal fee!
 
I've had the same experience. I have identified a few makers which I would buy stuff from online, but outside of this, I only buy online if it's a true bargain - at least 40% below replacement value.

There are also a couple people here I would trust more than others, and then when you know people, they might be more candid about makers. Finally, it often helps to ask for advices over e-mail rather than on the forum, where would-be detractors are a bit shy. Personally, I put a lot of weight on opinions from makers like Jerry Fisk, Don Fogg, Kevin Cashen, or Nick Wheeler (who's not in the same class as a maker, but knows what to look for in a knife), from dealers like Les Robertson, and from a couple collectors like Jim Cooper.

There are a lot of reasons why a collector might be unwilling to say anything bad about a given maker, some of which are 100% rational, some of which are not.

This being said, I think a custom knife should systematicaly be of a higher functional quality than the best of the production knives, and it's not always the case.
 
if i send something out and the customer finds a "flaw", i fix it or refund the money. That has happend 2 times in 7 years (1 cosmetic flaw, 1 handle a tad too small).

I WANT my customers to give me feed back, good or bad. You should indeed let the maker know of the issue at the least, or have him repair/replace the knife. Doesnt matter if i agree or not, as its the customers hard earned money that they have chosen to spend with me in a huge pool of knifemakers. Out of respect for there decision to buy a knife from me, its my obligation to make them happy with that choice.

As a buyer i would also consider what im paying for the knife, and the knifes purpose. If i am paying 250 for a 10" bladed chopping knife im gonna overlook some COSMETIC issues that i WILL NOT on a $750 dollar bowie etc...... What you can NEVER waiver on is performance issues, as a customer or maker.

I agree with Joss, and I KNOW he agrees as well- in general its better to buy a knife that you can handle and inspect in person. Buying online can be tricky, as you cant feel the balance, or inspect the knife for superfine details etc.....
 
To take the other side of the story, I also think that makers should have the option not to accept returns, esp. after more than 7 days. Similarilly, tune ups and clean ups are real work and should be paid for (I'm not talking about construction flaws however.)

JD
 
Don Fogg told me once that he has never made a perfect knife. Coming from an artisan of his stature, that was very good news.

It doesn't mean that we can lower our sights or our standards, but it does mean that it is possible to reach the point of diminishing returns, where to invest several more hours in a knife would result in a change so minuscule as to be visible only through a microscope.

When do you quit? That is the real question. "Good enough" rarely is.
 
Just wondering. Someone has to ask. Who are the makers and what was wrong with the knives?
 
I am willing to overlook minor imperfections, because I do not believe absolute perfection is possible. The imperfections I am willing to accept depend on the price of the knife and what it will be used for. Minor flaws that I will accept in a $400.00 knife will be unacceptable in one that costs twice that much.

Major flaws or functional problems are unacceptable from any maker and on custom knives of any price. These kinds of problems should not get out of the makers shop, but if they do, let the maker know. They can't fix what they don't know about.
 
Personally as a knifemaker, If a customer finds a flaw I ask them to please let me know, and I will do my best to make it right. Besides I always find things I could have done better, I guess I am my own best critic. But please let us know, I will never achieve perfection but with feedback I can get closer to it.
 
I now tend to look at a knife as value for the dollar paid. My first couple of custom knives I thought looked great. Then a few months later as I got more experience looking at knives I found many flaws in them. I also found other knives in the same price range that had better fit and finish. Those first ones I now consider poor buys for the money. With only a year of experience and 6 knife shows under my belt, I don't think I've yet seen a knife that I would absolutely call "perfect". There's always something not right if you look closely enough. And I'm still developing my critical eye so likely I'll find more imperfections from the ones that I think are high quality now.

But, I definitely have seen many values for the money, where the imperfections are too minor for the amount of money asked. I'll more readily praise a maker that charges what I think is a good value over one that may have better fit and finish yet charges more than I think is in proportion.
 
I think it depends on the type of knives you collect as well. For example, I collect tacticals that are meant to be used...HARD. I think that cosmetic flaws are more acceptable for this breed (makes you feel less guilty about using or carrying ;) )...that having been said, I did send one of my knives back, partly because of cosmetic issues but mainly because a pin was not flush and was "rubbing me th wrong way" (excuse the pun).

RL
 
I too have been very disappointed in the past having received high-end customs from very popular makers that were flawled.

Now i suppose i can handle a VERY minor flaw in F&F, depending on what it is, but i have reached the point where if im spending $350-$2000 on a high-end custom or production knife, there are a few musts.

First, no blade play, zero, if CRKT can do it on $50 knives, so can any of the well known custom makers. The minute i receive any knife, first thing i do is check for play, if i can do it in all of half a second, certainly a custom maker can as well?

Next, smooth action, same as above, i have seen some awfully smooth actions on knives well under $100, for 10 times that, it better be smooooooth. Some of the smoothest I have felt, Mayos, Sebenzas, JWS, A. Frederick and of course Carson, and im sure the list goes on...

Third, if its a liner or framelock, the lock must be well fitted, meaning that the lock engages the blade well towards the left side, but with more than enough contact, and it stays towards the left, even under blade cutting pressure, despite a fairly strong bend to the right, because of the angled blade tang ramp. I have seen too may high-end customs where right out of the box, the lock went all the way to the right, or wouldnt even engage the blade at all, not enough bend, if i told you the names of some of these guys, you wouldnt believe me. How can they ever let a knife like that go? For a $500 tactical, they should make sure the lock is perfect. Chris Reeves does a good, consciensous job, so does Mayo and JWS, Obenauf and Carson too, but some dont.

Next, the blade must be centered in the handle, it need not be absolutely perfect, but very close.

Finally, the ball detent must work well and pull the blade closed with some authority and precision, making a satisfying thunk when the blade hits home.

And of course, the materials should be excellent and the cosmetic F&F good, but unless these above listed functional criteria are met, i think there is no excuse, any maker who cares about his work should never let a knife out of the shop with a liner lock that engages all the way to the right, or conversely doesnt lock the knife open! Same for a blade uncentered in the handle, blade play, etc, these are things that are impossible to miss, if you care enough to look. In all of 3 seconds, i can see if a new knife has any of these flaws, they can too. Some make a stronger effort than others, and i am positive one very common mental thought of a mediocre custom maker is: "Well, it's good enough, im not going to do that whole part over again, its close enough... " or something similar, i suppose thats what seperates the greats from the goods, the willingness to do it again, and again, until its right.

I suppose i have seen at least one bad knife from just about every maker, no matter how well regarded, the best i can say is there are some makers who are 1) Often if not always capable of creating a virtually perfect knife, and 2) Can do it "most" of the time, i cant tell you how many well regarded makers knives i have seen with obvious flaws on maybe 40-50% of their knives that i examined. When i examine 15 knives by the same maker, knives being sold by several dealers, and 9 of the 10 had at least one functional flaw, theres a problem.

Just one man's opinion and i suppose it turned into a quisi-rant, but i often get a little fed up when i see some of the flaws that make it out of certain shops...
 
I strongly agree with what Don Fogg said to Don............ I have never made a "perfect" knife either, and as I am human, I doubt I ever will. All ethical Makers constantly strive for it, but there is always something we wish was "better" on any given knife.
By doing the absolute best work that we can, a maker is indeed giving the customer not only a knife, but also part of themselves. Customers have every right to demand an extremely high quality product, and it is the Maker's responsibility to ensure that he/she recieves it.......if that means fixing, replacing, or refunding money, then that's just the way it is......pleasing customers under whatever circumstances exist should be a primary goal of any knifemaker.
Perfect??? That's subjective. My opinion is that nothing is perfect, but it doesn't stop me from trying to achieve it! :)
 
I have to agree with everything that Meg said. Although I've seen his collection on the Web, and he has more experience than I do just by the sheer number of high-end knives he owns (I'm catching up...I think). I'd take those words as pretty near gospel. All I can say is that as you gain experience by buying more knives and going to more and more shows, you learn to pick out stuff much more quickly than at the beginning of your collecting experience. Also I think your standards tend to match the price of the knife, and the maker. Granted, few of us have large "rotating" collections like big dealers or Don Guild, but when one drawrer in your Gerstener is insured for $40,000 you learn FAST! I have one other thing to add to the list, SHARP from the maker. Granted most of these knives will never be used, but dammit THEY ARE KNIVES! Knives should be SHARP, if they're not, then they're just pretty little pieces of movable sculpture and the maker missed the boat. In case you haven't guessed this drives me crazy, since it doesn't take more than 5 minutes for a maker to put a wicked sharp edge on a blade.
 
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