Do you know the difference????

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Jan 21, 2001
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One of the topics that often comes up in the study of knives is that of handle materials. Often times it is quite difficult to determine between certain materials. Early jigged delrin ( plastic ) was done so well that often it is mistaken for the jigged bone it imitates. At sales and auctions they are often mislabeled. This happens all the time on Ebay. There are ways to determine the difference, however, the best way is to become so familiar with the items that you can see the difference. It is like a set of twins, upon first look they appear identical, however, when you get to know them you can distinguish which is which.

Original handles were made ( of course ) of natural materials. Although it would be interesting for some archeologist to find and carbon date a flint knife with a titanium handle. That would certainly change some thoughts on evolution.

Values on materials vary with many factors, aluminum used to be considered a semi precious metal ( due to the difficulty of early procedures for making it). Stainless steel models were few, so today on older Schrades, it brings a higher collectors value than the same model in carbon. Many factors come into play regarding this subject, and they are too numerous to approach them all in one discussion of these materials and how and why they fit into this history. Generally the main reason was expense, plastic was less expensive than the natural counterpart. The fact is that it generally held up better and could be made almost identical. Plastic does not usually break when you drop it on a rock or split on a cold day. The alternative materials are certainly as functional as the natural ones.

I suppose the answer to this is the very nature of man himself. Why does a man chase a pretty girl maybe married, when a single plain woman would not cause him near the same problems, cost less and certainly give as much use. ( ER I mean companionship ).

It would seem that this is a good time to get to the main subject matter on handle materials. It would be quite complicated to approach all of these materials at one time. Therefore I have picked just one, PEARL versus Celluloid. My reasons for this are first, pearl was always a relatively rare handle material ( that means the novice collector may not be as familiar with it), second, celluloid ( FAUX, French, or Marine pearl are among the various names for this material) seemed to be a beautiful, if volatile, alternative for the natural pearl. The problems with celluloid, an early synthetic ( like plastic) are many. It was made of camphor and nitrates, kind of like gunpowder and napalm. It naturally gives off a gas and should not be kept in an enclosed enviornment. It tends, at its own descretion, to break down into a gooey alien like mess, if the light or temperature fluctuates to much. It kind of has the temperament of the pretty women I mentioned earlier, and in good condition is a beautiful material. NOTE old companies that used celluloid kept it in a separate building, usually with a floating roof, so that air could flow in and out. Usually sooner of later these companies had at least one fire in these buildings anyway.

I have included a picture with this thread. It has 9 Schrade Walden knives made between 1946 and 1972 ( approximate). Some are pearl, some are celluloid. I wondered how many of you could tell by looking which were which. I have numbered the knives. They are in NEW unused OLD STOCK condition, so no discoloration or other excuses will be accepted. Simply list the numbers you feel are pearl and the ones you feel are celluloid. You can make your choice and send an email and post a thread, or if you are afraid to do that, just write your answers on a piece of paper and you can compare them and then write in that you had them correct. I will list the answer in a few days. That is if anyone shows an interest. Remember faint heart never filled a flush, so send in those answers. Good Luck LT
 
I LOVE THE SMELL OF CELLULOID IN THE MORNING..... IT SMELLS LIKE VICTORY!

With apologies to Robert Duval, here goes:

Looks like 1,2,5, and 9 are Pearl
Looks like 3,4,6, and 7 are celluloid
I can't get a handle on 8..... I'll guess Pearl

Even if I'm all wrong, that's a nice collection.

Thanks for an interesting post.

Bill :footinmou
 
I liked your response. As far as the correct answers I will give them up in a few days to give anyone a chance who might want to take a shot at it.

However your being the first to respond has won you a 4 year enlistment in the US Marine corp. Your fully armed eschort will pick you up in the morning. You will be interested that I have been told Napalm smells the same in Irag as it did in Viet Nam. Pick on Robert DuVall will, you whats next John Wayne. What is even worse was your pun on number 8 YOU CAN'T GET A HANDLE ON IT.

Thanks again for the response it is nice to know someone is out there, it makes the time spent putting a thread on worthwhile if you know someone enjoyed it LT
 
I would never pick on "The Duke", (AKA Marion Morrison), as we graduated from the same high school, (Glendale HS, Glendale, CA.), a few years apart.

As far as HANDLE references go, I'll bet the Duke woulda liked sawcut delrin and carbon steel.

As far as movie references go:

Civilian: General Patton, are those pearl handles on your gun?

Patton: Ivory. They are ivory. Only a pimp in Brooklyn would have pearl handles on a handgun. (apologies to the exact script).

Regards,

Bill
 
Just some ramblings on Celluloid and Pearl...

I go along with knifemaker Jerry Fisk who says a gentleman should always carry a pearl handled knife. My own choice is a Winchester (modern) 3 3/8" Toothpick (natch) with grooved and pinched bolsters. Makes me feel good to carry an expensive, elegant knife.

I've read the roofs the celluloid builds were hinged... So that when things blew, the blast would mainly go straight up. I've tried some experiments myself on older & newer celluloid, how it burns. Don't try it at home, kids! Must have been dangerous work, back in those days.

But the women who worked in the old English knife factories, cold, dank, or hot and sweaty, working with real Mother of Pearl, faced serious health problems as well, as they worked with a material they could never afford to own, the pearl dust doing serious damage to their lungs.

I'll risk embarassing myself here. Pearl: 4 5 6 7 9

My favorite 'war movie' hero? Lee Marvin.. there is a reason he is buried in Arlington National.

Thanks for the thread, LT.

Phil
 
2,3,5,8
Just to stay in the game.
Bet if I could hold em Id be able to tell!
TTYL
 
Just got back from a week in Pennsylvania, so my brain may not be working properly yet (long drive!). ;)

I'm gonna say 1,2,5,9 is MOP. I don't own any MOP, and don't see them very often, either. Outa my price range...

I have seen many knives on E-bay that I know are plastic, but are called bone by the sellers. Like you said Rich, kinda hard to tell on-line unless you know what you're looking at. I've even seen delrin ones in antique stores marked as bone. Just gotta pay attention.

Cool quiz idea, by the way. :D
 
Might as well include my pearls of wisdom :rolleyes:

I vote 2,3,4,5,9 pearl
I vote 1,6,7,8 celluloid

(insert hilarious laughter here)

Neat topic anyway, thanks
 
ANSWERS TOMORROW
LAST CHANCE TO MAKE YOUR PICKS
HINT 6 ARE ONE TYPE 3 ARE THE OTHER.
GOOD LUCK LT.
 
Allrighty then.....
I'll guess 1,2,3,5,8,9 as Pearl, and the other three as celluloid.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge on this forum. Schrade should be sending you samples at least for keeping it afloat. :D

Bill
 
The attached pic shows the original 9 knives, 6 of these knives are Mother of pearl(MOP) 3 are celluloid (CELL). SEE THREAD MOP OR CELL ANSWER PICTURE

I did position the knives at an angle that seemed most advantageous to deceive the viewer. However the main clue to look for in this problem are the striations or lines which are part of the celluloid pattern and is found in this material. Since it is man made in sheets, it will always have a repeating pattern. Even if the piece is only a small part of this pattern, it can be discerned. The main reason for the striated type pattern used in faux pearl, is to attempt to imitate the deep reflective quality of MOP by various shades and shapes within the material. This natural quality in MOP is often referred to as fire or being fiery. However in nature, this fire is random, deeper and not nearly as symetrical as in the celluloid.

Both of these materials make beautiful handle materials. The problem with pearl is that it is both expensive and dangerous to work with. The dust can be quite toxic to those who inhale it. I have been told that Schrade will never again produce pearl handled knives, simply because the safety precautions to do it correctly, are prohibitively expensive.

Celluloids main problem lies in its volitility and instability. As I have pointed out, you never know when it will decide to self destruct, as well as having some other problems that have already been pointed out.

It is amazing how close many man made materials can be made to approximate there natual counter part. Perhapes I will dig out some bone and jigged plastic which (for the most part for Schrade, took over for the real thing around 1960.) By the way it is a fallacy that Schrade completly stopped making bone handled knives at any time although it was rare and usually for special editions some production has always been in bone. Often the vast majority of special editions were in plastic while only a few were done in natural materials.

Interestingly they are now putting out quite a few lines in real jigged bone. The Classic and Cigar box are two such examples. They have also made some repos using old tangs such as New York Knife or Schrade Walden however they also deliniate these from the old ones with subtle differences such as blade etchs or other manner to explain that they are new issues.

For the few of us who have an interest in this segment of history I hope you enjoyed the small quiz if so let me know and perhapes I will attempt to stump you with another material. By the way I do not remember if I mentioned it but all of the knives used were old Schrades.

Just a side note my wife is quite pleased since the last hurricane washed away my driveway. It is undrivable unless by tank. I have decided to have it repaved a project my wife has sweetly recommended for about 10 or perhapes 20 years. However with all the knives lurking in the world waiting to be bought there was never enough money for both items. I have decided to make the sacrifice for this month and get it done. I am proud that I have cut back on my knife spending aside from a few setbacks ( I did spend 400 dollars this week for 2 knives) I feel I am doing well and as always the bank was happy to give me great rates on my loan. As I often explain to my wife you never have enough knives. Good Hunting LT

DUE TO MY SCREWUP THE ANSWER PICTURE IS IN THE NEW THREAD MOP OR CELL PICTURE. I ALSO INADVERTANTLY TOOK THE ORIGINAL PICTURE OUT OF THE ORIGINAL POSTING. HOWEVER THE ORIGINAL PICTURE WITH ANSWERS IS IN THE OTHER POSTING.
 
Fun and educational, LT. Thanks.

I wonder how many people have bought what was advertised on ebay as MOP but was really cell? And still do not realize it?
 
Hey LT,

Maybe you could do your driveway in some nice celluloid and really please your wife.......... NAH, probably not.

Bill:footinmou
 
Thanks for the quiz, LT. Very enlightening! Feel free to do this again, it was fun!

Bummer about the hurricane damage. Driveways are near the bottom of my list of things to spend my hard-earned money on! Knives, amazingly enough, are near the top of my list (right under "gifts for my darling Wife!"). :D



Maybe you could do your driveway in some nice celluloid and really please your wife.......... NAH, probably not.
- LOL ;)
 
Buying and selling on EBAY is at the least an interesting experience. I have over the years met some really nice people a couple of uniquely nasty people but over all it is a pleasant and rewarding experience.

A few years back I put a knife up for sale it was the twin brother to knife #3 ( in the contest). In the ad I specificly state that the scales (handles) were French or Faux pearl which I explained was celluloid. I even mentioned that this was a Schrade knife and there name for this material was marine pearl ( which denotes it as not being real pearl).

The buyer bought it and indignantly demanded his money back, since guess what, The handles were not real pearl ( what a surprise ).

I have learned that arguing over cyberspace is futile little pipsqueaks become foul mouthed bullys ( since there is no way to stop them and all you can do is sink to there level of useless name calling). Although I must say that in this case the fellow was a gentleman and he was truly surprised that celluloid and french pearl were not synonyms for really fancy and rare. real pearl.

All in all I relate this story just to show that sometimes even explaining is not enough. However this incident did lead me to include in my ads that if the buyer is not totally satisfied FOR ANY REASON. I will refund payment minus postage as soon as the item is returned in original condition.

My reason for phrasing it this way is because 1, I do not care what the reason is 2, it is not important enough to argue about and 3, If they are not happy neither am I. SO please just send it back I am sorry for any inconvience. Ebay is just fun for me I can still afford to drink Crown Royal whether I mess with it or not. However I find the good people far outweigh the bad and truthfully I have found some knives I never thought, I would. I am attempting to attach a picture of one such knife a very rare Schrade Cut 1937 perpetual calendar knife 1986 (Jim Sargent #1 )book value then was 1000 I bought it for a little over 100. I have only seen three a solid gold tiffiny model and 2 gold filled all three on EBAY. When I refer to EBAY I am really talking about all the buying and selling online.

I hated computers and truly never thought I had a use for them now with knives and POKER ON LINE, WHOOPEE. I have been flying to Vegas 3 times a year for the last 30 years and that does not count Atlantic City or Ct. Now all I have to do is get to understand the technology better and perhapes my postings will not be so confusing.

Knowing your subject is now even more important than it has ever been some ads are so flagrantly wrong that they could only be the result of ignorance. No knowledable person would attempt to pass off some of the ads I have seen some that were truly funny. While often these ads tend to attempt to make a knife worth more by claiming wrong handles etc often it works the other way and a real buy will come up. Usually these are gobbled up by a small group of buyers ( most whom I know ) but, every so often you can score and that is what makes the game fun.

GOOD HUNTING LT
 
I share your fascination with Ebay, LT, and my selling there, and my off-ebay sales (gun & knife shows, ect) are what finance my collecting. I find it interesting how my ebaying works; I buy some on ebay that sell particularly well at knife and gun shows to buyers that really know their knives, but are a little off on what web-pricing is. I pick up lots of knives at shows that sell for a really good profit on Ebay.

I recently walked into a knife show with my shoulder bag containing 4 Marble's Woodcraft knives and one Expert model, all purchased on ebay, with a sign stating what I had to sell pinned onto it. Sold one before I made it inside. Traded another (he gave me some cash to boot) for an old NewYork Knife company stockman in excellent condition (seller didn't even know what the tang stamp meant). Sold the others outright, and bought myself the Tauras 5 shot snub nose .38 I've been wanting with the profits.

I'm not bragging, anyone could do this, and I encourage all to try. It's fun and dealing with some of those sharpies at a show is really a challenge. Just another facet of my knife collecting hobby that I honestly enjoy.

Out of my hundreds of Ebay sales, I've had one that went bad. I simply told the buyer to keep his purchase and I hit the refund button at PAYPAL. Short and sweet and the problem is solved.

I hope I haven't strayed too far from the subject of this forum (Schrade knives).
 
If all the sellers on EBAY were as good as Toothpick we would have nothing to complain about. We just need to keep in mind that its always buyer beware and don't hurt yourself out there. Look both ways when crossing the street, ya just never know when a train will be coming.
TTYL
Larry
 
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