Do you look for this in a knife?

O

Old Painless

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Apr 10, 2006
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For a knife that is intended for everything from general camping to surviving a lost-in-the-wilderness situation, is prying or batoning ever a quality that you look for?

I guess that would mean thicker spine and/or a lower starting grind (as opposed to a full flat grind).

I hope the question makes sense. Cite examples of knives you have if you can. I'm curious to see how you all weigh the pros and cons of thicker versus thinner, etc. for wilderness and survival skills.

Thanks!
 
For sure ! It wouldn't be my top priority but if I felt it couldn't pry or be used with a baton if needed then it would likely fester away in my bedside drawer !


I was kinda thinking along these same lines earlier tonight and was going to post a thread about truncating wood, that is battoning or chopping straight through the wood against the grain. I did this with my ML Kephart through some very tough Ocean spray Aka Arrow wood and although the ML is has no secondary bevel and a very thin edge it went through with zero ill effect. Try this with some of ya scandi's and see the chips/dings !
 
For me... edge geo, comfort in several grips, good steel/HT are the things I look at most serious. Knifes ability to baton is something I think about, but if it has good steel/HT then batoning shouldnt be a problem. Its alot in how you baton too. Knifes I see break usually is due to operator error, or bad HT.. Koyote has done stuff with 1/16th, and 3/32? stock that is very impressive.
 
i dont look for prying in a traditonal bushcraft knife, batoning yes. for a "survival" knife id include prying as a must.
 
Batoning I look for in all my knives. If I cannot baton with it, than I really wouldn't buy it, unless it was for a specific function other than that. (Like tin knives)

Prying isn't something I look for in a knife. However, it would be nice to know my knife could do it if it had to.
 
Any knife I'm going to view as a "survival" knife is definitely going to have to be baton-able and take a good bit of lateral pressure.

Being as the true definition of a "survival knife" is simply the knife you have with you....I tend to judge all my fixed with these two factors being figured high on the list of criteria.
 
Hmmm.

I look for toughness, Edge geometry, a handle that provides a secure comfortsble grip in about every position I can come up with.

I want it to have a good point that I can pierce with if needed and yet somewhat strong. Batoning is a requisite. The edge must be thin enough to cut efficiently preferably convex edge on a full flat ground blade.

I don't do a lot of prying with my blades though my large blades could easily take it. My M-43 kukri I did pry with once to break out a notch when building a trappers cabin and it flexed to over 30 degrees and returned to true. However my large blades are all 5160 which is a very tough steel.

Most of my knives have started as 1/4' or 3/8" thick material and been forged down to 3/16 or 1/4 inch thick at the ricasso, all with distal tapers which is helpful in makinfg the blade handle stress better.

However this is all due to my love of the forged blade.

In 40 years of practicing wilderness survival, and more hours of outdoor pursuits as well as using blades daily on the farm, including a farm kill truck. Prying has never been one of my practices with a knife. Except on a very few occasions so it isn't to me a real big concern.

Most blades 3/16 inch or so thick with a convex or full flat grind will work very well for most survival tasks. Some of m,y favorite production models are:

ESEE 4
Swamprat Ratmandu
Fallkniven F1 & S1
Himlayan Imports R-10 and M-43 kukri

And many more.

Personaly I prefer the carry of a large knife and a smaller knife or folder, and the practice of always carrying both blades on your person as opposed to in a pack.

I generaly take along either one of my 10" blades (all of which are customs)Busse and ESEE Knives both make some fine blades in this range. And a smaller blade (Ratmandu, ESEE4, R-10 etc.). Or my Kukri and a smaller blade.

The addition of a large blade makes the fabrication of shelter, amenities, and trap parts far quicker and easier. It could all be done with a smaller knife. It would just be a whole lot more work.
 
I almost always baton when making a fire but... I have found that I can easily do all my batonning chores with my Ontario machete. In fact that's just what I did tonight and enjoyed a fire for a couple hours with the family. I'm not looking to split Sequoias here so I find that I really do not NEED a super thick blade.

Prying on the other hand... I have my RC-5 and always have a good mini pry-bar in my pack be it for work or play.
 
I look for both qualities, but prying not as much as batoning.
I'm no wilderness expert by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, i would label myself as a wilderness newb.
Therefore, for those tasks, i look for knives that won't let me down while i'm trying to learn outdoor skills.
Such as trying to baton some ridiculously large log that i'm going to get my knife stuck in and have to spend extra time beating on my knife to extricate it.
I figure, as i gain experience and learn the easy way of doing things, my priorities for knife qualities may change.
 
Yes, i wont buy a fixed-blade for outdoor use if i cant baton with it. Prying is not that important...if its stout enough for batoning then it can also handle my prying needs. I dont go around prying cardoors open with my blade, or open ammo boxes, closed doors and so forth.

Ive got a Fallkniven F1, Ontario TAK, Becker BK2 and BK9, CRK and even a beater Gerber Gator folder that i baton on a regular basis.
 
Never outside of an urban setting. If I start to wilt on that I simply take some images like the below and invoke an imaginary acquaintance in there too.

mayne5v1kkars.jpg

mayne5v1kkart.jpg

I then try to anticipate what that acquaintance would have to say to me persuade me to dig up rocks with my knife, or wail on it with a hammer, or drift it into a tree and stand on it and so on. None of them make the grade. Perhaps I'm not endowing that imaginary friend with sufficient idiocy but to date they all fall short at; “you've lost your gear because it has spontaneously combusted”, “you were being chased by a shark / bear / angry beaver / mad owl and lost your kit”, “it was the end of the world and I was playing peek-a-boo in the forest and weasels ripped my flesh”, “I fell off a mountain miles away and landed in a river. I had to dump my pack and use my knife as a piton to claw my way back up”, “it was imperative I used my knife as a screwdriver because of...”. So far I've found none of those arguments probable or compelling. Perhaps it will take a real nurk to come out with me rather than just an imaginary one to win the day. At the moment though that aint gonna happen. One of the reasons I like being out in the sticks is that it scrapes those kinds of people off.
 
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As others have mentioned, any quality, well made blade should be able to handle light battoning. Prying can damage a blade as it's hard to judge the lateral stresses you put on a knife and since most knives are designed for cutting, you really need to be careful when prying. I have done some prying into rotton logs looking for grubs to use as fish bait, and even removing shellfish from rocks, but outside of that or an urban environment, it's not a top priority when looking for a knife.

ROCK6
 
I understood you question to be, "Do you look for batonning and prying ability in a do everything outdoors knife?". Yes I do, and in my BoBs and camp bag are kept at least one. For my other bags and edc, I usually do not worry about it.
 
Not something that I personally look for no. Mainly because I use a knife as an adjunct to a hatchet or axe, and like baldtaco, I can never envisage not having it (my other tools) with me. I don't do any rough canoeing, so the only survival situation I could put myself into would be to get lost on land, which means I have my pack with me anyway. If I canoed rough stuff that may be different, I might want something chunky on my belt.

Chris
 
Batoning ability is important to me as I frequently only bring a knife and a SAK and I routinely use the two in combo to process wood for a small personal fire and shape bow drill kits etc. As many have mentioned, light batoning in this regard requires nothing really design specific. I prefer full tang or through tang (hidden but the stick tang goes through the entire length of the handle and is peened or screwed at the butt end) knives. As for thickness, I actually prefer thinner knives for batoning. I really like 1/8" in all kinds of length flavours.

I don't do a lot of prying with my blades but sometimes I will put some weight on a blade when ripping out fatwood from a stump, but there are ways to get around that if I don't have a thicker instrument with me. For prying, its not just thickness but thickness and length since you can lever a much larger force on a long blade. In fact, something like my ESEE-4 with a short blade (4") and 3/16" thick 1095 is great for ripping/prying activities. Short and stout will take a lot of punishment. It was a big motivator when I first bought that blade about 3 years ago (when they first came out). I don't find that thickness and/or need to pry all that important to me now.

I do find myself sliding now and again towards the multiple tools to address multiple tasks attitude. However, circumstances change often and I can't certainly make a statement like an axe goes where ever I go. In fact it hardly goes where ever I go unless I make a conscious decision to bring one and that necessitates a good reason. I also will often just spontaneously do things like have a fancy for a pine needle tea and set up a tiny little fire to do so. I often just have a SAK and knife with me so that is what I use. I want to be sure that those two tools can do all the things I'm likely to do.
 
Old Painless said:
For a knife that is intended for everything from general camping to surviving a lost-in-the-wilderness situation, is prying or batoning ever a quality that you look for?

I guess that would mean thicker spine and/or a lower starting grind (as opposed to a full flat grind).

I hope the question makes sense. Cite examples of knives you have if you can. I'm curious to see how you all weigh the pros and cons of thicker versus thinner, etc. for wilderness and survival skills.

Thanks!
Click to expand...
No. There are other tools for splitting wood and prying.
My most " versatile" knife is a 5 inch tanto from Blinker.
It fits on the same sheath as my hatchet.
 
To answer your question, no. For me anyways.
The idea of Prying with my knife makes me laugh, but to each his own... I also have never needed to baton unless all my wood is wet, and I can Baton without a problem with a mora blade and that is probably the thinnest blade I would buy.

So yeah I really wouldn't take either of those into consideration when buying a knife. Of course that's just my opinion, but you did ask for it...
 
I find this thread interesting because I can see how I have been influenced by this board. I like KGD carry a sak and belt knife and battoning is a consideration - however - like J Williams to look for others things primarily for good steel, better geometry, and perfect heat treat. If I have that in a full tang - I don't sweat the style of battoning I do.

TF
 
You don't necessarily need a thick blade for batoning. Thicker does make it easier because the thickness acts like a wedge to split stubborn wood better. The blade being able to flex is important if you go with thinner stock. A tough knot will cause the blade to flex around the knot. Although if you have good edge geometry, you should be able to cut right through a knot. I've done it many times.
Prying on the other hand is best with a thicker spine. I'd say 5/32" on up. I've found the best all around thickness to be 5/32" in the 4 to 5 inch blade range if you find yourself needing to baton and pry tough woods. I do like 3/16" also in this size range for the added insurance.
I like 3/16" for anything 5 1/2" on up. 1/4" is in another option for those that prefer thicker.
Scott
 
Probably the thickest knife I've ever carried that had prying ability was my old Ontario USAF survival knife. It was a good knife, until the leather handle rotted off of it. Razor sharp and stout, but I never used it for prying. Now, I only carry an SAK, Mora and a machete. Both the Mora and machete work for batoning, but I wouldn't pry with either of them. Haven't had a need for prying to make camp fires, and I don't really see the need.
 
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