Do you see what I see?

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
When these "thought provoking" missives are written, please don't mistake them for self-indulgence. It's my way to try to give back to the knife community and point out things that many have not considered.

Grew up poor. Foodstamp poor, wanting for a bunch of stuff, three pairs of shoes(workboots, athletic shoes, dress shoes) poor.

For the area my father and I lived in, the Mohawk Valley(called "Little Appalachia" with sniggers by city folks), was raised well-to-do.

Always had a full belly and didn't have to quit school to help out with bills.

This informs my desires as a no-longer-poor adult. Learned early that good products are often more expensive than lesser quality, and that they are almost always worth the extra money....and learned to do without until the better quality could be had.

As an early teen prone to trouble in school, my father was informed by teachers that my art skills were decent enough to be encouraged and might help keep me out of trouble, which was sort of true.

My art teachers from 6th grade on spent a lot of time working with me, and by the time I was 15, was taking adult art classes at an art institute. Still life, landscape, nudes(one time, my friend who studied at the same place, and I were surprised by the model being his older brother. We made jokes that 16 year old kids do and almost got literally killed by his brother when we got home from our studies....good times!)

Tattooed professionally for 10 years between Seattle, WA and Socal, stopping in 1998. After that went to design fabric patterns for a motorcycle apparel company for almost 8 years....so maybe the art teachers knew something.
2rmy1yx.jpg

This paisley was created around 2000. It is completely original, and has sold over 250,000 pieces to date.

Not a masterwork.....am an "ok" artist, but never stop trying to improve my skills or my eye.

How do I do this? Simple.... I study the masters, and try to emulate their techniques.

Unless you are a master yourself in whatever medium you work in, study of mastery is necessary, and to do otherwise, "in my opinion" demonstrates arrogance or ignorance.

True masters are so far out of the realm of normal humans that their muses are the air and sun and the music that they listen to in their heads is the Voice of God. Known some true masters in different disciplines and they are often simultaneously their own greatest fans and worst critics, but more than anything else, they all love a challenge in that discipline, or in many other things as well. By all measures of music, Prince Rogers Nelson was a genius, but he also liked to play basketball. Since he was 5"2", not likely the NBA was gonna come calling, but didn't keep him from playing the game for love of a challenge.

You find the master's work of your choice and style and you try to copy every line down to the signature. You keep trying until you get it or you give up out of despair.

The exercise teaches you how to see what the master saw, and to try and emulate it, NOT interpret it. That comes later. There will be a lot of mistakes in the process, but you will learn.

When l learned to tattoo, did a true and full apprenticeship.....working for no money, and it was decidedly hard. Mixing inks, drawing flash line art, spit shading, making tattoo machines, soldering up needles, cleaning the shop, taking out the trash and learning every minute. Would not trade that for anything in the world, because I learned my craft and to this day, am a solid journeyman tattoo artist, but nobody will confuse me as being a master.

I see knife making as very similar, and experience so much pushback about the attitude of emulating the masters as being somehow beneath the maker that it is almost laughable.

Try copying, line for line, one piece by Larry Fuegen, Wolfe Loerchner, Loveless, or Michael Walker. See if your technique in general does not improve. See if the way you see does not improve.

For the journeyman artist, after copying and learning to see comes expert interpretation and then ownership of style.

I see too many makers trying to skip vital steps and it ultimately results in a product that may be good, but is much less well produced than it would have been if emulation had been employed.

Because of that, the value is not there to me(see explanation about value above), and I take a pass on that maker's work.

With factories taking very good build and construction cues from the custom sector(they are learning how to see too), the competition for that disposable income is getting geometrically greater each day.

Do you see what I see?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
That is a very good post STeven. I have had so many thoughts on this topic. Attention to line is crucial and that sense of "right" is almost objective. In that, much can be learned even from drawing the knives from the pages of a book. Often it's instructive to change a line just a little to notice the effect and see how easily a "classic" can be ruined. Then marvel at the "right". Unfortunately knifemaking is also sculpture and to copy the lines alone isn't enough as you point out in the "failed" copies of Loveless knives. The cost of being able to "study" these pieces... Is there a maker that can afford to do that with those masters you mention? I try to understand fine nihonto while having held only 2 examples for a cumulative total of about 4 1/2 minutes though I have many books. Obviously that's not enough.

An apprenticeship such as yours, the total immersion, I would think is an exceedingly rare opportunity that, these days, only a rarer still personality could be humble enough to live.

All the great artists had a foundation of study and early 20th century art is full of great examples of what you are saying. Everyone is familiar with the distorted portraits Picasso painted but look at the subtlety and understanding in his early works.
 
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Your story, Steven, explains much about what I think is your ability
to pinpoint your critique about knife design!

It is also why I look for opportunities to request your amazing
knowledge/insight-thoughts in my books and am so exited with the results
when you agree to do so, upgrading whole sections with your contributions!

All the best!
David Darom (ddd)
 
That is a very good post STeven. I have had so many thoughts on this topic. Attention to line is crucial and that sense of "right" is almost objective. In that, much can be learned even from drawing the knives from the pages of a book. Often it's instructive to change a line just a little to notice the effect and see how easily a "classic" can be ruined. Then marvel at the "right". Unfortunately knifemaking is also sculpture and to copy the lines alone isn't enough as you point out in the "failed" copies of Loveless knives. The cost of being able to "study" these pieces... Is there a maker that can afford to do that with those masters you mention? I try to understand fine nihonto while having held only 2 examples for a cumulative total of about 4 1/2 minutes though I have many books. Obviously that's not enough.

Hi Stuart,

Many makers live in a rural locale, but many don't. There are hammer-ins, dealers who hold stock from the makers I mentioned, and knife shows. Where there is a will, there is often a way, the suggestion to emulate was not made with flipness.

An apprenticeship such as yours, the total immersion, I would think is an exceedingly rare opportunity that, these days, only a rarer still personality could be humble enough to live.

Obviously if you have a wife and children, it's likely not going to work, but my apprenticeship was conducted while working full time in the U.S. Navy. I didn't party a whole lot and focused my energy on learning. I see no reason why this would either be a rare opportunity or why it would be that difficult, especially with computers these days allowing many to work remotely.

All the great artists had a foundation of study and early 20th century art is full of great examples of what you are saying. Everyone is familiar with the distorted portraits Picasso painted but look at the subtlety and understanding in his early works.

This is the "classic" way of learning art for many journeymen artists, or at least it was. It's an excellent way to learn art or craft if you have the discipline.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
STeven I agree. My first year of full time I also apprenticed under Moran and Crowell. In 1987 they started the ABS school. I served as unpaid assistant for every class of that year so that I could learn not only how to make knives the way they did but how to teach the way they did. The more you learn from different people the broader your knowledge. Your spin on it does come later after much research and more input.
I traveled from there to shops of what other few masters they were as much as I could and from there to any knife maker that I could so I could learn from there. Some makers gave me left field advice and after many years I know some put me there on purpose, some just did not know better and some gave good solid advice I still follow. Your mileage may vary.

I always tell makers that are just trying to learn to also start collecting knives. That's one piece of advice that Moran was right on. A photo be it on the computer or in print is one dimensional. You do not have to buy the nicest work that a maker offers but just good clean work. That way you can coon finger it at night and study whey they did what. If you can afford to go cut and use it do so. I have used 95% of the knives I have collected since 1986. The reason being if their knives cut better than mine I wanted to know why and what I needed to do to make it so. I still collect knives and try them out.

Just remember that no one person knows it all, take advice and direction from as many as possible to find your own path.
You gave good thoughts STeven.
 
Perhaps it was a bit late in the evening for me to be replying.
Many makers live in a rural locale, but many don't. There are hammer-ins, dealers who hold stock from the makers I mentioned, and knife shows. Where there is a will, there is often a way, the suggestion to emulate was not made with flipness.

I certainly didn't mean to imply any flipness and true, I forget that while I live well away from these resources, many don't.




Obviously if you have a wife and children, it's likely not going to work, but my apprenticeship was conducted while working full time in the U.S. Navy. I didn't party a whole lot and focused my energy on learning. I see no reason why this would either be a rare opportunity or why it would be that difficult, especially with computers these days allowing many to work remotely.

I think I read into your description in that it was more of the "live-in" apprenticeships that in some rare cases you can still do in Japan. I thought the point of it was that, particularly with something like knifemaking, doing remotely through a computer wouldn't really count. These forums provide an opportunity for that style of "apprenticeship" already.

Your point though is well taken and would be well to be heeded by all.
 
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Perhaps it was a bit late in the evening for me to be replying.

I certainly didn't mean to imply any flipness and true, I forget that while I live well away from these resources, many don't.

Stuart, part of the internet as communication media is that nuances are lost and the ability to speak as if we were face to face is missing. In order to have clarity of thought, I addressed potential flipness, was not implying that was an accusation.

I think I read into your description in that it was more of the "live-in" apprenticeships that in some rare cases you can still do in Japan. I thought the point of it was that, particularly with something like knifemaking, doing remotely through a computer wouldn't really count. These forums provide an opportunity for that style of "apprenticeship" already.

Your point though is well taken and would be well to be heeded by all.

What I was saying is that if someone who has a job that can be done via offsite on the computer, they could devote the time necessary to physically apprentice with a maker...not live with them, although that does exist to a bit, more makers are offering study onsite....Dave Lisch, Tim Hancock, Murray Carter.....in some cases, with accommodations provided...but I think of that more in the concept of a neophyte learning basics than an already-experienced professional maker expanding upon their repertoire of skills.

We can all learn and should learn from a multitude of sources, and something like BladeForums can be of great assistance, but is still no substitute for "being there".

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
that Jason guy, who does a wide variety of work based closely on the work of established makers, is an exemplar of the approach being discussed but who seems to be able to do his work apparently by research via internet only. His success in channeling the aesthetic language of the cutlers who he emulates is really remarkable.
 
that Jason guy, who does a wide variety of work based closely on the work of established makers, is an exemplar of the approach being discussed but who seems to be able to do his work apparently by research via internet only. His success in channeling the aesthetic language of the cutlers who he emulates is really remarkable.

Do you have photos of the "Jason guy's" work compared to the makers he emulates?

Until it is held in hand, the ability to channel ANY influence is solely limited to aesthetics. Some have the gift, but most do not.

Neill Schutte comes to mind, of recent makers that I have seen. Having never handled a Loveless Dixon, he did a remarkable job in making me one.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Until it is held in hand, the ability to channel ANY influence is solely limited to aesthetics.

True dat. You know the guy, he posts here from time to time. I think he lives in China, signs his work 'Jason', but I think he might go by a different user name.
 
STeven,

Your post is relevant to many artistic fields, most certainly mine. When I started out fifteen years ago, I learned how to make 'insets' watching a handful of others. Gawd, I was awful. Eric Eggly was the premier one to watch in this regard and he has held up the bar.

Buddy Thomason and I were regular players on a Photo forum on Knife Network for years and we both played off each other learning techniques and tricks. I used to use rolled up masking tape to keep the tip up. Buddy showed me the first 'hovered' knife image. I've been copying him since. :)

I learned from David Darom as well: if you take a close up of an inset it better be highly elevated as it HAS to be closer to the eye. Plausible.

After the FIRST 5000 images or so, I started to develop a style of spacing, layout, and lighting which separated me. Tons of personally stylistic aspects; some by accident, some by influence, some through slow development.

I certainly watch others, but I'm aware I've been watched too.

As an artist pays tribute, openly recognizing the influences is not just a courtesy, it's the right thing to do. (right, Paul Long? ;))

Good thread. :)

Coop
 
As an artist pays tribute, openly recognizing the influences is not just a courtesy, it's the right thing to do. (right, Paul Long? ;))

Good thread. :)

Coop

Yes, I agree, Coop. Open recognition makes me feel like whatever I offered had some value, and of course,

when that fails to happen the opposite is true.

Paul
 
Excellent thread. And you're absolutely correct STeven - even the most creative and visionary artists in the world can and do learn from others. What Jerry said about collecting and using other makers' knives is also spot on, especially since a knife can't be fully understood until it is held and used for its intended purpose. As you and others have already pointed out, a two-dimensional image of a three dimensional tool is unable to convey important characteristics like balance and heft, or handle ergonomics, or blade geometries...

I was in Amsterdam recently and had the opportunity to visit the Rembrandt house as well as the Rijksmuseum. In the world of painting, the "Dutch Masters" of the Golden Age are probably some of the most extraordinary and influential artists of all time, and Rembrandt was arguably the greatest master of them all. The unconventional lighting and compositional elements he used in his work set a new standard that is still emulated by painters today, but like all of the great masters, Rembrandt learned the craft through apprenticeships and careful study of other artists' works.

Rembrandt was also an avid collector of paintings and other works of art, from ancient sculptures and carvings to Venetian glass to Japanese arms and armor and even natural objects like seashells or walrus tusks (some of these objects from his personal collection are still on display at the Rembrandt House). He not only displayed these objects in his home, but operated an art gallery through which he bought and sold many dozens of important works throughout the years. Rembrandt used these other works of art to help further his own skills and interpretations and elevate his craft to new levels.

Through his early apprenticeships and later collections, studies, and dealings in other makers works, the greatest painter of them all continued to learn throughout his long and illustrious career. If you ever get an opportunity to stand in front of the Night Watch and really study it up close, you'll understand why. No matter how you good are, you can never stop learning!

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I need to go plan another trip ;)
 
Rembrandt used these other works of art to help further his own skills and interpretations and elevate his craft to new levels.

Through his early apprenticeships and later collections, studies, and dealings in other makers works, the greatest painter of them all continued to learn throughout his long and illustrious career. If you ever get an opportunity to stand in front of the Night Watch and really study it up close, you'll understand why. No matter how you good are, you can never stop learning!

Now if you'll excuse me, I think I need to go plan another trip ;)

Hey my friend,

Went to Europe the first time on my honeymoon. While others might enjoy tropical islands and sunsets, my wife and I enjoy travel, trains, churches and museums(for different reasons)

We shared the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, after hitting up the famed bookstores and locating a mint, signed and numbered copy of a book about Johfra-http://www.vagallery.com/johfra.html for the princely sum of $90.00 US.

As I walked through a door to a cafe' in the museum, turned around, and there the Night Watch was, and I promptly fell over. Will never be able to recapture that feeling of awe towards that (completely justified) masterpiece!

I study the way Loveless, Jason Knight and Nick Wheeler sculpt handles in the same way. Having worked and shaped many handles, I'll never quite be able to correctly reproduce them(especially not with the tools that I have, but that is another subject for another time), but the many hours spent looking at them, holding them and thinking about them have been an informative joy.

Nick in particular has evolved quite a bit in the recent years with his handles, and as such, they are some of the best knife handles ever made functionally and aesthetically, in my opinion.

Rock on amigo!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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The points regarding tactile experiences of cutlery really hit home, as nothing has made a more positive impact on my knife designing gig than owning really well made knives. Bracing myself for the costs associated with owning knives was made easier when I starting thinking about those costs as 'tuition'. Once I realized that a really good knife almost always retains value and can easily be resold, as well, it became apparent that I needed to own lots of really good knives :)
 
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