Do you think that CQI includes Spyderco (or Crucible) perfecting the processing (heat treat, etc) of a steel?

Hashishiin · Mar 1, 2022

Either from your personal opinion, knowledge, or experience, has Spyderco ever say, struggled with a steel in the beginning, or had a couple of issues because of this or that (not a metallurgist) but later improved on it, having essentially learned more about it and how to work with it to full potential? For example, this is totally anecdotal, I was reading reviews of the S110V that Spyderco did, and some say it's chippy - but I just happened to notice those posts came from like 2016 and 2017, in my short reading. The posts from 2019, 20, 21... the folks seemed quite satisfied.

This isn't about that steel in particular, share experiences with any steel, but I am interested in that one, to be certain.
Thanx much for replies

yablanowitz · Mar 1, 2022

It certainly does. When they first introduced PM steel (440V a.k.a. S60V), nothing was known about it. Spyderco went with Crucible's suggested heat treatment as a starting point. It proved to be too chippy according to real-world feedback, so it was changed. I don't know about S110V, but it would not surprise me a bit to learn that heat-treat has been refines as well.

Hashishiin · Mar 1, 2022

yablanowitz said:
It certainly does. When they first introduced PM steel (440V a.k.a. S60V), nothing was known about it. Spyderco went with Crucible's suggested heat treatment as a starting point. It proved to be too chippy according to real-world feedback, so it was changed. I don't know about S110V, but it would not surprise me a bit to learn that heat-treat has been refines as well.

I was looking at some old Spydies with "440V" and was wondering what that was. Great to know! Going and renaming it definitely gave it distinction as opposed to being of the "440" line.

yablanowitz · Mar 1, 2022

The 440V designation came from being basically 440 series chemistry with added vanadium. S60V was Crucible's designation. Sal wasn't sure the knife-buying public would accept "powder metal" technology, so the Military was also released in ATS-34 at the same time.

Sal Glesser · Mar 2, 2022

Hi Hashishiin,

Yablanowitz is correct. CQI is Constant quality improvement. It happens in all areas from product to employees to values, etc. It is one of the basic core values of the company.

sal

Hashishiin · Mar 2, 2022

Sal Glesser said:
Hi Hashishiin,

Yablanowitz is correct. CQI is Constant quality improvement. It happens in all areas from product to employees to values, etc. It is one of the basic core values of the company.

sal

Thanx Sal! Your company makes 'em the best!

weeping minora · Mar 2, 2022

In my experience and joy in using Spydercos, I notice an increase in performance of newer models (or manufactured iterations) as time goes on. Hence my continued interest and use in their product.

Can't say I've personally ever noticed a steel, myself, down-grade in performance. Perhaps not 100% satisfied with some sprint or exclusive steel offerings, but not in regular, consistent production. S30V (and S110V in terms of Spyderco) seemed to have that chippy sentiment thrown towards nearly all makers at one point. ZDP-189 has been the only steel that I've seen other folks comment regarding a decrease in performance over time, fwiw.

Hashishiin · Mar 3, 2022

weeping minora said:
In my experience and joy in using Spydercos, I notice an increase in performance of newer models (or manufactured iterations) as time goes on. Hence my continued interest and use in their product.

Can't say I've personally ever noticed a steel, myself, down-grade in performance. Perhaps not 100% satisfied with some sprint or exclusive steel offerings, but not in regular, consistent production. S30V (and S110V in terms of Spyderco) seemed to have that chippy sentiment thrown towards nearly all makers at one point. ZDP-189 has been the only steel that I've seen other folks comment regarding a decrease in performance over time, fwiw.

Thank you for your input, that is another steel I have and am wondering about how it'll perform, the ZDP. I think as long as I don't put lateral force on it, it should be okay, I hope! I know ZDP is an interesting steel, getting it's sharpness in a unique way.

I am probably worrying too much over a S110V knife. I do that, sometimes. Reviews cutting through electrical cable, zip ties... seems like a little common sense goes a long way, that is why I bring my Cruwear PM2 up to the hiking trail with me, instead of the ZDP, for one example. I am still lacking in a lot of real experience yet, so I ask here to get an idea before I put a chip in something.

tiguy7 · Mar 3, 2022

Hashishiin said:
Thank you for your input, that is another steel I have and am wondering about how it'll perform, the ZDP. I think as long as I don't put lateral force on it, it should be okay, I hope! I know ZDP is an interesting steel, getting it's sharpness in a unique way.

I am probably worrying too much over a S110V knife. I do that, sometimes. Reviews cutting through electrical cable, zip ties... seems like a little common sense goes a long way, that is why I bring my Cruwear PM2 up to the hiking trail with me, instead of the ZDP, for one example. I am still lacking in a lot of real experience yet, so I ask here to get an idea before I put a chip in something.

I have been EDCing ZDP-189 for over 20 years. Have had no chipping, very little rust, and no decrease in performance. Easy to sharpen on Al2O3 (Shapton Glass) stones. Excellent edge retention.View attachment 1757365 View attachment 1757366

Hashishiin · Mar 4, 2022

tiguy7 said:
I have been EDCing ZDP-189 for over 20 years. Have had no chipping, very little rust, and no decrease in performance. Easy to sharpen on Al2O3 (Shapton Glass) stones. Excellent edge retention.View attachment 1757365 View attachment 1757366

Major bag alert! Wow! These are absolutely gorgeous... I have heard of high end brands like William Henry and Rockstead using mainly ZDP or cladded ZDP. It has always seemed the grooviest of the super-steels! Supposed to be some high-fine-edge-holding steel, right? That was why I heard it was beloved for chefs in Japan.

I have but one ZDP-189 knife, an Endura! Not as nice as these, but still nice, cannot wait to put it through the paces. Heard a lot of things about the sharpening of it, do you use those glass stones because you prefer to or because you must use something like glass/diamond?

weeping minora · Mar 4, 2022

Hashishiin said:
Thank you for your input, that is another steel I have and am wondering about how it'll perform, the ZDP. I think as long as I don't put lateral force on it, it should be okay, I hope! I know ZDP is an interesting steel, getting it's sharpness in a unique way.

I am probably worrying too much over a S110V knife. I do that, sometimes. Reviews cutting through electrical cable, zip ties... seems like a little common sense goes a long way, that is why I bring my Cruwear PM2 up to the hiking trail with me, instead of the ZDP, for one example. I am still lacking in a lot of real experience yet, so I ask here to get an idea before I put a chip in something.

I will say, in my uses and experience, S110V will indeed chip. This doesn't necessarily mean I was looking for it to do so and I don't think of myself as doing anything with my knives that I wouldn't use a proper tool or device to do instead. The knife in question was from a factory edge, UKPK model. I'll sum it up mainly to the factory geometry being a bit too shallow for my use, for that steel. Perhaps a micro-bevel would have been a benefit. I know I had sharpened a fair amount of pencils in carry, using that knife; something I don't normally do with my other carry options. I've heard of other people using S110V to completely cut out and remodel carpet flooring with no such damage, or drawback. Edge retention is still up there with the heavy hitters of the production knife world.

Opinion and experience of others is to be valued, to an extent. Never throw out an idea, but do not rely on that idea as a basis in replacement of your own experience. You'd be surprised in what a steel might be capable of, whilst others may adamantly spew fact that it cannot. This goes for scientific testing, too. It's all to be taken with a grain of salt in a fistful of pepper. If you bought a steel capable of going weeks (or months for some) of daily carry and use without touch-up, see what it can do for you.

weeping minora · Mar 4, 2022

tiguy7 said:
I have been EDCing ZDP-189 for over 20 years. Have had no chipping, very little rust, and no decrease in performance. Easy to sharpen on Al2O3 (Shapton Glass) stones. Excellent edge retention.View attachment 1757365 View attachment 1757366

The decrease in performance of ZDP that I've heard mentioned was due to the OPs question on the topic; Spydercos heat-treatment.

Over time, it has been tested and shown that Spyderco has decreased the target hardness of ZDP. This leads to a decrease in performance of the steel; not over the life of one specific knife in use and sharpening, but specific knives knives that have been heat-treated to a lower hardness from the factory, as part of the CQI process.

Hope this clears up my statement.

Hashishiin · Mar 4, 2022

weeping minora said:
I will say, in my uses and experience, S110V will indeed chip. This doesn't necessarily mean I was looking for it to do so and I don't think of myself as doing anything with my knives that I wouldn't use a proper tool or device to do instead. The knife in question was from a factory edge, UKPK model. I'll sum it up mainly to the factory geometry being a bit too shallow for my use, for that steel. Perhaps a micro-bevel would have been a benefit. I know I had sharpened a fair amount of pencils in carry, using that knife; something I don't normally do with my other carry options. I've heard of other people using S110V to completely cut out and remodel carpet flooring with no such damage, or drawback. Edge retention is still up there with the heavy hitters of the production knife world.

Opinion and experience of others is to be valued, to an extent. Never throw out an idea, but do not rely on that idea as a basis in replacement of your own experience. You'd be surprised in what a steel might be capable of, whilst others may adamantly spew fact that it cannot. This goes for scientific testing, too. It's all to be taken with a grain of salt in a fistful of pepper. If you bought a steel capable of going weeks (or months for some) of daily carry and use without touch-up, see what it can do for you.

I like to use a Higonokami to sharpen pencils, makes me feel traditional

As always from you, informative and helpful answer! You see, I went a little crazy with buying knives in January, and I bought a lot of new steel, as a beginner to the knife world... ZDP, Cruwear, REX 45, S30, S35, S45, ... I have a lot to rotate through, but the good thing is, specialized steel for different applications.

Just started stropping and about to buy a Sharpmaker to help maintain them, and simultaneously try to learn stones, but the good thing is that yeah, these are all quality steels that can perform my needs for quite a while, as I'm not cutting up a million boxes every day. I am sure that ZDP will be great for its intended application, and will definitely let the real world dictate my opinions.

yablanowitz · Mar 4, 2022

weeping minora said:
The decrease in performance of ZDP that I've heard mentioned was due to the OPs question on the topic; Spydercos heat-treatment.

Over time, it has been tested and shown that Spyderco has decreased the target hardness of ZDP. This leads to a decrease in performance of the steel; not over the life of one specific knife in use and sharpening, but specific knives knives that have been heat-treated to a lower hardness from the factory, as part of the CQI process.

Hope this clears up my statement.

I believe they backed off the hardness a little after a bunch of the ZDP-189 Mule Team knives snapped while people were putting handles on them. I never had an issue with any of mine. I could probably run a side by side comparison between my old Krein regrind and my latest ZDP Endura to see if I can detect any degradation of performance.

weeping minora · Mar 4, 2022

Hashishiin said:
I like to use a Higonokami to sharpen pencils, makes me feel traditional

As always from you, informative and helpful answer! You see, I went a little crazy with buying knives in January, and I bought a lot of new steel, as a beginner to the knife world... ZDP, Cruwear, REX 45, S30, S35, S45, ... I have a lot to rotate through, but the good thing is, specialized steel for different applications.

Just started stropping and about to buy a Sharpmaker to help maintain them, and simultaneously try to learn stones, but the good thing is that yeah, these are all quality steels that can perform my needs for quite a while, as I'm not cutting up a million boxes every day. I am sure that ZDP will be great for its intended application, and will definitely let the real world dictate my opinions.

New steel is always fun and exciting! It looks like you have a fair amount of steel available to you to be able to find out what characteristics you will value most. Only real suggestion I can give you is to be sure to buy the diamond or CBN triangle stones for the Sharpmaker, to get the best out of your carbide-rich steels and to make re-profiling the edges a smoother process for all the others (which will be inevitable once your knives get sharpened enough, or you want to experiment with different edge geometries and finishes).

I'm sure ZDP will be a great steel to experience, nonetheless. It just doesn't have enough behind it in regards to what I like in my knives, to open my pocketbook.

weeping minora · Mar 4, 2022

yablanowitz said:
I believe they backed off the hardness a little after a bunch of the ZDP-189 Mule Team knives snapped while people were putting handles on them. I never had an issue with any of mine. I could probably run a side by side comparison between my old Krein regrind and my latest ZDP Endura to see if I can detect any degradation of performance.

I believe you are correct. I remember this being discussed though, years later (~2018/2019) that once again, users had found ZDP to have degraded in performance within standard production models, versus the iterations from years prior. Perhaps this was a hiccup within this time period, or a perception of such, as this was around the time that everyone went off their nut about hardness ratings... Anyhow, there is a video with Michael Christy regarding these sentiments, still available from that time period. This is just one data-point, but I recall this being of discussion amongst others as well.

Point of reference is almost exactly at the 8:30 mark in the video:

Hashishiin · Mar 4, 2022

weeping minora said:
New steel is always fun and exciting! It looks like you have a fair amount of steel available to you to be able to find out what characteristics you will value most. Only real suggestion I can give you is to be sure to buy the diamond or CBN triangle stones for the Sharpmaker, to get the best out of your carbide-rich steels and to make re-profiling the edges a smoother process for all the others (which will be inevitable once your knives get sharpened enough, or you want to experiment with different edge geometries and finishes).

I'm sure ZDP will be a great steel to experience, nonetheless. It just doesn't have enough behind it in regards to what I like in my knives, to open my pocketbook.

Yes, that was exactly my idea by purchasing so many! Diamond and CBN triangles. Awesome. The process of re-profiling is daunting to me, but if it can be done on a Sharpmaker, that is good news for me. Just need to educate myself on the subject. Maybe buy a RAT 2 or an Opinel specifically to learn on.

tiguy7 · Mar 4, 2022

Hashishiin said:
Major bag alert! Wow! These are absolutely gorgeous... I have heard of high end brands like William Henry and Rockstead using mainly ZDP or cladded ZDP. It has always seemed the grooviest of the super-steels! Supposed to be some high-fine-edge-holding steel, right? That was why I heard it was beloved for chefs in Japan.

I have but one ZDP-189 knife, an Endura! Not as nice as these, but still nice, cannot wait to put it through the paces. Heard a lot of things about the sharpening of it, do you use those glass stones because you prefer to or because you must use something like glass/diamond?

The Shapton Glass Al2O3 stones are very high quality and offer a wide array of grits. Most of my ZDP-189 knives are around 65-67 HRC. Al2O3 can handle this level of hardness. When you add VC, MoC, TiC, and/or WC to an alloy, the chunks exceed the hardness of Al2O3. Harder abrasives are needed for such materials.
The stuff has great wear resistance for not being loaded with hard Carbides. The left 3 Spydercos are ZDP-189. Try to find a ZDP-189 chef’s knife. Even William Henry is phasing the stuff out.View attachment 1758198 View attachment 1758199

tiguy7 · Mar 4, 2022

weeping minora said:
The decrease in performance of ZDP that I've heard mentioned was due to the OPs question on the topic; Spydercos heat-treatment.

Over time, it has been tested and shown that Spyderco has decreased the target hardness of ZDP. This leads to a decrease in performance of the steel; not over the life of one specific knife in use and sharpening, but specific knives knives that have been heat-treated to a lower hardness from the factory, as part of the CQI process.

Hope this clears up my statement.

Got it. I have some Spyderco Enduras in ZDP-189 but haven’t used them much. As I recall, their posted hardnesses are lower than the William Henrys at 67HRC. The Spydercos are not laminated, but that should not affect the micro edge. I do not have a hardness tester, much less the time to test batches of factory knives.

Hashishiin · Mar 5, 2022

tiguy7 said:
The Shapton Glass Al2O3 stones are very high quality and offer a wide array of grits. Most of my ZDP-189 knives are around 65-67 HRC. Al2O3 can handle this level of hardness. When you add VC, MoC, TiC, and/or WC to an alloy, the chunks exceed the hardness of Al2O3. Harder abrasives are needed for such materials.
The stuff has great wear resistance for not being loaded with hard Carbides. The left 3 Spydercos are ZDP-189. Try to find a ZDP-189 chef’s knife. Even William Henry is phasing the stuff out.View attachment 1758198 View attachment 1758199

Wow, these are beautiful knives that you have! Thank you for the info. What exactly is the story with ZDP? I hear it"might be discontinued" by Hitatchi, from Sal, in an older post. I see the Stretch and Endura in it aren't discontinued, I think. What is Rockstead gonna do, isn't ZDP like, their thing? But, Cowry X exists, though I'd rather have the legit stuff. I have a PM2 in REX 45 and I know it's the American analouge of HAP 40 so I want to try one of the cladded HAP 40 knives to try the original stuff.

I was intending already to snap up a couple of kitchen knives and probably a Stretch in the steel, but this confirmed that it is a good idea, I do not want to miss out on this steel and regret it later, once I have more knowledge of sharpening and edges. It seems like this is a really unique one.