Do you think this prohibits Assisted Opening?

J

Joe Dirt

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Here is my local law. To me it looks like it outlaws Assisted Opening knives like those from Kershaw.

What do you think?

I've colored the text red which I think dictates this.

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549.10 CARRYING VARIOUS WEAPONS PROHIBITED; EXCEPTIONS.



(a) No person shall carry a pistol, revolver, bowie knife, dirk, stiletto, dagger or other knife having a blade two and one-half inches in length or longer, or a karate stick or nunchakus, knuckles, a billy, blackjack, or bludgeon, or a knife fitted with a mechanical device for automatic release of the blade opening the knife and locking the blade in the open position and commonly known as a switch or automatic spring knife, or any other dangerous weapon on or about the person without proper justification. "Proper justification" includes, but is not limited to, the right of law enforcement officers and other persons specifically authorized by law to be armed within the scope of his duties. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of this section, if it appears that the defendant was at the time engaged in a lawful business, employment or occupation, or that the circumstances in which he was placed justified a prudent man to possess such weapon for the defense of his person, property or family.





(b) Whoever violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

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a knife fitted with a mechanical device for automatic release of the blade opening the knife and locking the blade in the open position and commonly known as a switch or automatic spring knife

An assisted opening knife doesn't allow for automatic release. You open you knife manually part way and then the spring helps to open it the rest of the way. I think you could certainly argue that this part of the law doesn't apply

This next part bothers me

or any other dangerous weapon on or about the person without proper justification.

How vague can you be? Any other dangerous weapon? What is that?
 
I think a knife collector would say that what Shootist16 stated that you open the knife manually first, but I think any LEO, judge or jury would think your use a thumb stud or flipper to start the automatic opening of the knife. In NY where I live, it states "in the handle of the knife" as for location of the button, so it seems to be OK here, but I am sure some would see it otherwise.
Your law seems to offer a good vague defense for possesion due to the reason you have a knife. I think there is where you may find some hope....What State is this from??
 
Probably not illegal, but it depends on the judge's intrepretation of the law. That phrase is pretty vague, and allows it to be viewed in different ways. In my opinion, AOs are a gimmick and allows you to open the knife only slightly faster than using a hole, or even better a flipper. A. G. Russell had a special edition Camillus Dominator w/o AO for thse concerned with the law. So you aren't the only one.
 
Joe Dirt said:
a knife fitted with a mechanical device for automatic release of the blade opening the knife and locking the blade in the open position and commonly known as a switch or automatic spring knife,
Click to expand...

On an assisted opening knife, the knife does not automaticly release. It has to be manually released before the mechanism takes over.

The whole assisted opening thing was generally designed as the best way to exploit whatever small loopholes exist in existing laws in order to gain the fastest possible, legal, deployment.

The way most knife laws are currently written, the assisted openers seem to fall just on to the legal side as is intended.

HOWEVER, that doesn't mean you wouldn't have to spend thousands proving that in court. It also doesn't mean that the LEO that examines it doesn't differ in his opinion and confiscate it and arrest you.

Overall it seems to fall in the legal side of the grey area. Personally I try to avoid the grey area entirely though so as not to end up being some county's test case on them.

Just my $0.02
 
Joe Dirt said:
Here is my local law. To me it looks like it outlaws Assisted Opening knives like those from Kershaw.

What do you think?

I've colored the text red which I think dictates this.

--------------------------------------

549.10 CARRYING VARIOUS WEAPONS PROHIBITED; EXCEPTIONS.



(a) No person shall carry a pistol, revolver, bowie knife, dirk, stiletto, dagger or other knife having a blade two and one-half inches in length or longer, or a karate stick or nunchakus, knuckles, a billy, blackjack, or bludgeon, or a knife fitted with a mechanical device for automatic release of the blade opening the knife and locking the blade in the open position and commonly known as a switch or automatic spring knife, or any other dangerous weapon on or about the person without proper justification. "Proper justification" includes, but is not limited to, the right of law enforcement officers and other persons specifically authorized by law to be armed within the scope of his duties. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of this section, if it appears that the defendant was at the time engaged in a lawful business, employment or occupation, or that the circumstances in which he was placed justified a prudent man to possess such weapon for the defense of his person, property or family.





(b) Whoever violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor of the fourth degree.

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Click to expand...


First of all, I'm not a lawyer and make no claim to be able to provide valid legal advice. Hence the following is entirely my personal opinion.

Having said that, it seems to me that while a very narrow interpretation of the above law might uphold the legality of A/Os based upon you initial "opening" of the blade manually via finger flipper, you'd be much better off playing it safe. Even if you're not breaking the law, do you really want to be arrested and go to court to have to prove it?

Nevertheless a strong argument can be made that A/Os are illegal under the above statute because (1) they 'appear' to be "fitted with a mechanical device for automatic release of the blade opening the knife and locking the blade in the open position". It pretty much hinges around whether or not the A/O "releases" the blade and 'opens' the knife. The fact that the A/O kicks in after ~20% manual opening doesn't help things here - the "release" of the springs is triggered after the manual part of the opening. So - in my opinion - the million dollar question is whether the A/O assist or the manual part 'opens' the knife. Technically the knife is 'open' at 20% (I'm sure under many street circumstances a police officer would consider 20% open); yet it not fully opened. Which meaning the law supports is up for grabs.

I'm not trying to discourage you by any means: I'm merely trying to provide a pragmatic "devil's advocate" viewpoint. My advice would be to get a knife with a non-A/O finger flipper, wave, or thumb hole, which w/ some practice can be opened just as fast as an A/O, but without the potentially dubious legality.

[To preempt anyone who might take issue with me for not advocating "standing up for your rights," I answer that freedom includes the freedom to act prudently. Yes, people do need to stand up for their rights, but the reality is that you have to pick your battles carefully. The more you err on the side of prudence, the stronger your legal position will be if you are ever challenged. Remember that if you lose, the case establishes damaging negative precedent that will most likely affect future knife owners. ]
 
It's from OHIO.

I am betting that if I were to get caught with a A/O knife in my posession they would take it and arrest me.

I personally don't even get assisted openers. I can open any of my Axis lock Benchmade's just as fast or faster than an AO knife.

I think that they would argue that the "torsion bar" in a Kershaw would be the "mechanical device" that "opens" it.
 
Well, the Robo opening one Camillus AO's do not have a spring at all, and no switch, but this really is borderline.
 
You're fine in Ohio. They sell those things just about anywhere. It would take a really ignorant police officer to put you in jail for a kershaw AO knife. I'm sure it could happen, but unlikely. Restricted and prohibited sales are restricted to LEO/Military. If you can buy it at wal-mart or dick's it's not prohibited as a general rule of thumb. I'm sure you could probably buy something that would be iffy or borderline off the internet.
 
The Kershaw Assisted Openers are technically fitted with a mechanical device (the torsion bar) which could also be defined as a "spring" if they really wanted to do so. Also the knife does automatically release (after you open the blade a small amount).

I think they leave stuff vague like this so the judges can do what they want to when needed.
 
Well, I'm no lawyer, but I've been steering clear of AO knives for the slight chance they'd be considered switchblades or gravity blades or other such nonsense. I keep the pivots on my knives tight to avoid the gravity knife thing. But then I know I'm paranoid. I stand out in the crowd too much and attract attention. The police officers around here have a tendency to look at me funny. So I play it safe.
 
I think that Kershaw has sent lawyers to fight a case where a Speedsafe was involved and got good result.

Having said that, the reaction of the LEO is highly influenced by the appearance of the person with the knife in question. Meaning if u look like a regular joe with nicely kept hair dressed properly, u shud be OK.
 
One of the key techniques in interpreting a statute is to find judicial interpretations of the terms used in the statute by reference to the same section, the same statute and other statutes in pari materia IE, in similar legislation. In most jurisdictions, extrinsic sources can be used to interpret legislation where the statute is ambiguous. That rule is not strictly followed everywhere because some follow a more "purposive" approach ( in Canada, Dreidger's "Modern Principle" has been adopted by the Supreme Court of Canada).

The term "open" is ambiguous because it can refer to opening from a fully closed position or opening from a partially closed position. However, the term is modified internally by reference to "and commonly known as a switch or automatic spring knife". Therefore, the automatic opening is not sufficient: it also has to be commonly known as a switchblade or auto opener. That should require evidence of what is "commonly known." A good lawyer should be able to prove that these knives aren't commonly known as autos or switchblades.

As for "dangerous weapon", a similar term is used in the Canadian Criminal Code and not every knife is necessarily a "weapon", let alone a "dangerous weapon". In the CCC, both design and intent may be relevant, but again, you have to read both the legislation and the cases to know what the definition is. The courts' opinions sometimes are a little strange, so commonsense doesn't necessarily serve as a good guide.

Having said that, kevtan makes an excellent point: common sense is well advised in dealing with any LEO. The best defence is to not get charged in the first place.
 
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