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Does anyone know what the RC hardness for Spyderco's 154 CM
- Thread starter jonj480
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Just look for a spyderco knife that is made with this steel and most everyone lists the hardness in the specs.
And I have to add that I wished they would use the CPM 154 cm instead. Much better than the non crucible form.
I did do a brief hunt for its hardness at bladehq but it did not list its hardness for the native I found in 154 cm. I must continue now because you have my curiosity up. For me I like knives that are made from CPMS30V. Could not find a non crucible form for CPMS30V and that may be because there is not one. The reason for that is because it was Chris and Crucible that invented the CPMS30V together.
But I will continue to try and find the non crucible 154cm in a spydie knife that lists the RC with it.
Almost forgot you can find a nice blow up for CPM154CM side by side with its no crucible form 154CM. You find this on Knives-ship-free site. At least they had this blow up about a year and a half ago, the last time I did any real research on their knives.
On the steel chart below you can find the different properties of both crucibles and non crucibles for D2, 154, and a few others. They list the Crucible forms in different rows so you have to scroll up and down. But as it goes a lesser expensive steel is used to cut cost at times. Expecially when regular old 154cm is a very good steel in its own whrite.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php
cajun
And I have to add that I wished they would use the CPM 154 cm instead. Much better than the non crucible form.
I did do a brief hunt for its hardness at bladehq but it did not list its hardness for the native I found in 154 cm. I must continue now because you have my curiosity up. For me I like knives that are made from CPMS30V. Could not find a non crucible form for CPMS30V and that may be because there is not one. The reason for that is because it was Chris and Crucible that invented the CPMS30V together.
But I will continue to try and find the non crucible 154cm in a spydie knife that lists the RC with it.
Almost forgot you can find a nice blow up for CPM154CM side by side with its no crucible form 154CM. You find this on Knives-ship-free site. At least they had this blow up about a year and a half ago, the last time I did any real research on their knives.
On the steel chart below you can find the different properties of both crucibles and non crucibles for D2, 154, and a few others. They list the Crucible forms in different rows so you have to scroll up and down. But as it goes a lesser expensive steel is used to cut cost at times. Expecially when regular old 154cm is a very good steel in its own whrite.
http://zknives.com/knives/steels/steelchart.php
cajun
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The CPM prefixed steel are "powered" steels using Crucible's Particle Metalurgy. Some of them, like CPM S30V are patented, proprietary to Crucible and only available as particle steel. Others, like D2 and 154CM are older steels and available from a number of makers in regular form and from Crucible as a particle steel. Crucible may also supply regular versions of those steels. CPM 154CM will have different properties from 154CM, like a finer grain structure, even if the chemical composition is the same.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam
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~60 if I remember correctly. I could be totally wrong though.
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I think that is what I just said but in different words so what is your point. And I know crucible steel is the powerded form. It is the other person we are trying to educate not me. I appreciate the diferent angle on the same take. And I appreciate your shareing it with me. That is sure what I said about the 154 cm anyway I just assumed that everyone knew what crucible was so I did not elaborate like you just did. All is good or like my oldest son says, It's all good.
I am glad this was brought up. I am no quiter I will find this info. I will call them direct if I have to no problem. I did not read down further here so someone may have chimed in with the answer.
But still if someone wants to see the awesome difference using the crucible form of a steel makes that photo on knives-ship-free site. Actually I will go find it and put the link here. It makes a huge difference when it is in the powerded/crucible form. But there is probably two reasons that most companies do not use CPM-154-M. You have to have the right equipment to deal with the stuff and you have to be extreemly skilled to work with the stuff. At least this is what I have read.
I am glad this was brought up. I am no quiter I will find this info. I will call them direct if I have to no problem. I did not read down further here so someone may have chimed in with the answer.
But still if someone wants to see the awesome difference using the crucible form of a steel makes that photo on knives-ship-free site. Actually I will go find it and put the link here. It makes a huge difference when it is in the powerded/crucible form. But there is probably two reasons that most companies do not use CPM-154-M. You have to have the right equipment to deal with the stuff and you have to be extreemly skilled to work with the stuff. At least this is what I have read.
The CPM prefixed steel are "powered" steels using Crucible's Particle Metalurgy. Some of them, like CPM S30V are patented, proprietary to Crucible and only available as particle steel. Others, like D2 and 154CM are older steels and available from a number of makers in regular form and from Crucible as a particle steel. Crucible may also supply regular versions of those steels. CPM 154CM will have different properties from 154CM, like a finer grain structure, even if the chemical composition is the same.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam
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Given the fact that Spyderco has worked with CPM S90V and M-4, I'm sure they have the equipment and skill to work with CPM 154. They chose 154CM for the base model version of the Manix 2 because they wanted to position the Manix 2 as an entry level knife and 154CM was a good, but inexpensive, steel. Sal explains the logic here, if you're interested and have not already seen it.
As for hardness, Spyderco does publish figures, but Sal might chime in with them or may have done so at some time in the past.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2010
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- 221
I can see the marketing stratagy in using 154 CM now. I hope the original poster has been reading all this. Because in my first post I was trying to share with him a bit on where to look. Then expanded to explain the crucible form of a steel, and the difference it has over its non- crucible form. I believe I was clear on that, but, you did a very good job on expanding on what I said. Glad you shared that with him and me/us, the expanded info and greater knowledge, of why some steels are used where they are, as a marketing stratagy was very well said.
I am no proffesional, especially when it comes to marketing steel in knives, but I do know my fair share on steels in knives,"though limited" when compared to some on here, that have a much greater knowldge on steel. I try to share what I know, and point people in a direction where they can learn for them-selves. Again for you "original poster here" I was just trying to explain steels for you, and then maybe with an expanded understanding of them, you would be better equiped to buy a knife, for which you thought the steel would be best for your needs.
And I am sure if you "original poster" are reading these replies to me, "at least I hope you are", this person knows a lot more than me, and is giving some extreemly good info here. I appreciated him sharing that with us. I know I love CPM-S30-V. And I have always been curious about the quality of D2. Seems people praise it very much. Now if "spydero" uses crucible D2 in their knives I would love to try one. I wonder if GEC is using Crucible D2 for all the knives they are making for Queen.
I actually have a lot of questions about tool steels VS some of the better stainless steels. I have no concern over rust cause I treat my knives like little babies. CPM-M4 I think is good tool steel. I see prople highly praising that one. But I really do not want to take up space in this thread for this. I have not learned how to start a post yet but I think that would be a very good one. Also I think there are others that would be better than me to start one unless they already have one and I do not know aobut it. I will have to do a search, but mayge the replier knows of one . And also I am very interested in learning the qualities and performance of different steels as different elements are put in the equasion/steel. Now if you know of another site like this one I actually do not search enough for there may be a forum on this site on steels used in knife making. If they do not have one I think it would be a good one. Or at least a good thread on the subject. Again, one may exist and I just have to search for it.
http://zknives.com/index.shtml
I am very interested in it if it exists for me/us. But for now so the mod does not yank us for to much chatting, and/or off topic. I will try to focus on the OPs question. But I would love a site that was easier to use and explains the properties and what they do, when combined with other elements they speak of, instead of just saying it is in the steel. I am a rookie on this stuff and a much willing to learn person. Zknknives probably does have that in their site. So maybe I am just missing it. Nice chatting with you, but, better yet, getting new info, from you that I did not know. Much appreciated.
Take care, and again, thanks for the much appreciated and shared knowledge you have given us here.
cajun
I am no proffesional, especially when it comes to marketing steel in knives, but I do know my fair share on steels in knives,"though limited" when compared to some on here, that have a much greater knowldge on steel. I try to share what I know, and point people in a direction where they can learn for them-selves. Again for you "original poster here" I was just trying to explain steels for you, and then maybe with an expanded understanding of them, you would be better equiped to buy a knife, for which you thought the steel would be best for your needs.
And I am sure if you "original poster" are reading these replies to me, "at least I hope you are", this person knows a lot more than me, and is giving some extreemly good info here. I appreciated him sharing that with us. I know I love CPM-S30-V. And I have always been curious about the quality of D2. Seems people praise it very much. Now if "spydero" uses crucible D2 in their knives I would love to try one. I wonder if GEC is using Crucible D2 for all the knives they are making for Queen.
I actually have a lot of questions about tool steels VS some of the better stainless steels. I have no concern over rust cause I treat my knives like little babies. CPM-M4 I think is good tool steel. I see prople highly praising that one. But I really do not want to take up space in this thread for this. I have not learned how to start a post yet but I think that would be a very good one. Also I think there are others that would be better than me to start one unless they already have one and I do not know aobut it. I will have to do a search, but mayge the replier knows of one . And also I am very interested in learning the qualities and performance of different steels as different elements are put in the equasion/steel. Now if you know of another site like this one I actually do not search enough for there may be a forum on this site on steels used in knife making. If they do not have one I think it would be a good one. Or at least a good thread on the subject. Again, one may exist and I just have to search for it.
http://zknives.com/index.shtml
I am very interested in it if it exists for me/us. But for now so the mod does not yank us for to much chatting, and/or off topic. I will try to focus on the OPs question. But I would love a site that was easier to use and explains the properties and what they do, when combined with other elements they speak of, instead of just saying it is in the steel. I am a rookie on this stuff and a much willing to learn person. Zknknives probably does have that in their site. So maybe I am just missing it. Nice chatting with you, but, better yet, getting new info, from you that I did not know. Much appreciated.
Take care, and again, thanks for the much appreciated and shared knowledge you have given us here.
cajun
Given the fact that Spyderco has worked with CPM S90V and M-4, I'm sure they have the equipment and skill to work with CPM 154. They chose 154CM for the base model version of the Manix 2 because they wanted to position the Manix 2 as an entry level knife and 154CM was a good, but inexpensive, steel. Sal explains the logic here, if you're interested and have not already seen it.
As for hardness, Spyderco does publish figures, but Sal might chime in with them or may have done so at some time in the past.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Kiwimania ---- Spydiewiki
Dead horses beaten, sacred cows tipped, chimeras hunted when time permits.
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
It's easy to grin when your ship comes in and good fortune and fame are your lot, but the man worthwhile is the man who can smile with his shorts twisted up in a knot. - Morey Amsterdam
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I have been following the responses of this thread. The reason why I originally asked is that I am a longtime collector of some other brands and I just got my first 2 Spyderco's this week. A plain edge standard Manix 2, and a Gayle Bradley. I have many knives in D2, S30V, 154CM, a few in M4, one in M390, some 440C, etc so I have experience with many different types of steels. I will say I wish I would have started buying Spydercos a long time ago. The Manix 2 for $75 has to be one of the best values (actually the Gayle Bradley too) I have ever gotten in a knife. I will gush in another thread.
The 154CM blade on my new Manix 2 seems harder than the 154CM on some of my blades from other companies. I sharpen by hand (my grandfather taught me years ago) and work with the blades alot. It just seems that the 154CM on this Spyderco is much better than the same steel on some other brand's knives. Don't know why, it just feels harder. I haven't been able to see RC #s on it, so it got me curious.
The 154CM blade on my new Manix 2 seems harder than the 154CM on some of my blades from other companies. I sharpen by hand (my grandfather taught me years ago) and work with the blades alot. It just seems that the 154CM on this Spyderco is much better than the same steel on some other brand's knives. Don't know why, it just feels harder. I haven't been able to see RC #s on it, so it got me curious.
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Now you are getting funny. I looked back and all you have done on this thread is answer back to my first post and you keep building on that. You never once attempted to answer the Original Posters Question. I like learning but it seems you are on a big ego, pride, self esteem or attention seeking adventure or something!>>>What ever ---- I tried to boost you a bit in my last post and thought that would give you the attention you seek. But I suppose I was wrong.
So maybe do this. For once give your attention to the original poster for you have not done that at all yet. Now I am finished with this thread since i cannot find the answer for the man "yet". I will pm him if I do.
Now if you feel a need to teach the public I suguest you start your own thread. I do have questions on the topic you seem to want to stay on. But when I want advice I ask for it. And I do not remember asking in this thread. Now as I mentioned you may be the one to start such a thread. You seem to know a little anyway.
cajun
So maybe do this. For once give your attention to the original poster for you have not done that at all yet. Now I am finished with this thread since i cannot find the answer for the man "yet". I will pm him if I do.
Now if you feel a need to teach the public I suguest you start your own thread. I do have questions on the topic you seem to want to stay on. But when I want advice I ask for it. And I do not remember asking in this thread. Now as I mentioned you may be the one to start such a thread. You seem to know a little anyway.
cajun
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What I've been trying to do is make sure we're all talking about the same steels. Your posts have been consistently confused and confusing. There's no ego thing at this end...I am not the one with rambling, pontificating, vague posts that can't be addressed because they refer to products that don't exist. By the way, there's a very good chance that this question has been answered before here at Bladeforums and that a search would turn it up.
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You are correct. I was trying to avoid naming brands but I was referring to some of my benchmades. I have a few buck fixed blades with bos HT in this steel as well, and the Spyderco just seems harder. If I were to rank them, it would be the spydie, then buck, then benchmade. I love my benchmades too, and this is not meant as a bash, it just feels likt the Spyderco is heat treated harder.
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I've noticed this with my 154CM blades and S30v blades from both companies. Just a gut feel when I sharpen with no real scientific data to support it.
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I spent some time this morning searching for info on Spyderco's 154CM and didn't find what I think I remember. I did find a few threads in which a BM Rift was reported as testing at Rc 61, which is pretty darned good, and harder than I would have expected. As a general matter (and generalizations are almost worthless here, sorry), Spyderco tends to run HTs higher than Benchmade, but I'd be surprised if they were doing so in this case. The Benchmade catalog does spec 58-61 for 154CM in the Rift.
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If I am not mistaken both cpm-154 and the non powdered version 154-cm are both made by Crucible. The only difference between the two steels is the powder metallurgy process.
I will double check on the material spec sheets and see if I can get you an answer on hardness, but as others have pointed out it has everything to do with the heat treat and tempering. Higher temperature during the temper lead to harder steel, but with decreased corrosion resistance. The tempering range affects the carbide formation, more carbide makes harder steel. However more carbide also means less free chromium and less corrosion resistance. Overall its sort of a wash, since a harder blade that rusts more easily is not necessarily going to last longer...
I will double check on the material spec sheets and see if I can get you an answer on hardness, but as others have pointed out it has everything to do with the heat treat and tempering. Higher temperature during the temper lead to harder steel, but with decreased corrosion resistance. The tempering range affects the carbide formation, more carbide makes harder steel. However more carbide also means less free chromium and less corrosion resistance. Overall its sort of a wash, since a harder blade that rusts more easily is not necessarily going to last longer...
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I have a Rift that tested at 61 RC, so at least on that knife Benchmade hit the gigh end of their scale. At 61 RC it really performs nicely. My Manix 2 with a Krein FFG really performs great to, but with a thinner edge than the Rift it is hard to make a direct comparison. My guess would be that the Manix 2 is close to my Rift in hardness based on both how the steel sharpens up and how long it holds an edge.
