Does customizing knives invite legal probs?

[bls]

I am curious as to your opinions regarding the following question:

Would customizing your carry knives (for example cutting traction grooves, installing thicker liners, modifying the shape of the handle, etc) increase your chances of being convicted for illegally carrying a knife for "defensive purposes"? (Carrying an otherwise legal knife for self-defense purposes is a crime in NYC and NJ.)

I wonder how a jury (or a cop, for that matter) would interpret the fact that a knife has been customized.

On the one hand, they could interpret the fact that the owner improved the grip/lock/cutting ability/whatever as proof that he plans on using it for self-defense.

On the other hand, they could interpret that to mean that he is a collector who is particular about perfecting his knives.

What do you think?

 

[Gollnick]

they could interpret the fact that the owner improved the grip/lock/cutting ability/whatever as proof that he plans on using it for self-defense.

First of all, carrying a knife for self-defense is not necessarily a bad or illegal thing. Check the laws in your area. Inasmuchas your profile is blank, I nobody can make any more specific comments.

The real problem is carrying a knife (or anything) with the intent to use it to commit a crime.

What we're talking about is intent.

Modifications with the intent of making the knife a more effective weapon could be construed as proof that the knife was being carried for criminal purposes, with the intent of using it in a crime.

 

[GoldCutter]

I think your best bet is to not allow the police officer that finds the knife on you to take it any further

in fact if one asks you if you have a knife then you should hand it over straight away .......you can tell him that you have it on you for a purpose and that the customizing is backing up the claim of lawfull use showing it as a tool for work perhaps......but I seriously dought you will get away with it......your best bet is complete honesty

and as for turning a standard knife into a prohibited weapon then it becomes a differant issue.......but really if you are trying to pull the wool over a cops eyes....... then you're breathing in too much knife cleaner.

the laws where I am from are differant here.....but I would expect that minor alterations to an edged weapon would be irrelivent to being in possesion of an edged weapon......its not something you would really want to be caught with either way under the wrong circumstances


I do hear the points you're making but I'm not an expert on law.....just common sense.....and the law is based on common sense.

 

[bls]

First of all, carrying a knife for self-defense is not necessarily a bad or illegal thing...The real problem is carrying a knife (or anything) with the intent to use it to commit a crime...

Unfortunately, this is not true in all areas. In some states, carrying a knife for the purpose of self defense causes the knife to fall within the statutory category of a "dangerous knife". It depends on the case-law in the particular state.

If I understand correctly, the precedent in NJ and NYC is to interpret knives carried for self-defense as "dangerous knives" in the context of statue, which makes them illegal.

 

[GoldCutter]

let me just add that if a police officer has reason to search you for you have been unlawfull......then in his or her eyes you are an unlawfull person......you aint gonna have any chance of changing their minds.

If you're on trial for murder and you want to defend your intent buy pointing out a few scratches on a blade....well that to me sounds like saying.."I shot the guy but I took a lot of care in making the bullets myself".

 

[Ken C.]

If I understand correctly, the precedent in NJ and NYC is to interpret knives carried for self-defense as "dangerous knives" in the context of statue, which makes them illegal.

And where did you dig up this little tidbit of information? It is best to have a source of information before you make a statement such as that. I have carried a knife for over 15 years and not once have I ever been arrested for having a knife in my possesion. If you have any questions about knife laws in the State of NJ contact Evan Nappen, www.evannappen.com.

This should be in the Knife Laws Forum.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

.....and the law is based on common sense.

GoldCutter, you're a good guy, so please don't take offense at this, but .... no, we have laws that are NOT based on common sense.

Any law restricting an ordinary citizen's carry of an ordinary object is not based on common sense.

(Carrying an otherwise legal knife for self-defense purposes is a crime in NYC and NJ.)

Threatening or using an otherwise legal knife in an offensive manner is a crime, etc., etc.

How would the law know you were carrying your customized knife for purposes of self-defense? If you told them so ... so, don't.

As I see it, anyone carrying a fairly expensive knife is carrying it for utility and pride of ownership. Anyone carrying a fairly expensive knife that they've taken the trouble to customize (or have someone else customize for them) is definitely carrying with pride of ownership in mind.

This is not the person or the knife to expect in street corner combat. The knives seen in petty crime are rarely of much intrinsic value. Saying, "That's a nice knife," is tantamount to acknowledging "That's not a thug's weapon."

 

[bls]

let me just add that if a police officer has reason to search you for you have been unlawfull......then in his or her eyes you are an unlawfull person......you aint gonna have any chance of changing their minds.
...

If I were an unlawful person, I would be concerned about going to jail for other reasons, not for carrying a pocket knife.

I have heard of at least one case of someone being searched on a traffic violation.

There have also been numerous times that I have "beeped" walking into or out of a store that uses magnetic tags for shoplifting detection. That could also have theoretically led to a search (if not for the fact that the storekeepers themselves knew their system was faulty).

These are the kinds of things that I worry about. I don't have to carry a knife, I just prefer to, and I can't help sometimes but wonder whether or not it is worth it.

 

[wildmanh]

You got to ask a question. Is an Officer really going to know that you modified said knife if you don't say so? There are so many knives from so many companys, it's hard to tell whats a modification and whats not. I've modified some of my knives and everyone that has seen them thinks it was done at the factory.

If the knife looks like it was designed with Self Defence or killing in mind, that's the way people with common sence will view it. If by modifying a knife it become illigal to carry in your area (IE sharpening the clip to make it double edged, converting a folder to auto and so on) then you have to worry. If not, you should be fine.

Heber

 

[Ken C.]

I think you're being a bit over dramatic and paranoid about the whole thing. In the case of the traffic violation search the LEO probably had just cause for the search. Take everything you hear with a grain of salt. If you broadcast to the world that you have a knife on you then you deserve to get searched. Use a little common sense and discretion and you should be fine.

 

[GoldCutter]

sinse I came to this forum I didnt carry a knife yesterday for the first time in ages.......I also stopped yelling out the window at bad drivers.




see my point?
if you're gonna carry a knife then you're liable to use it.

"yes Your Honor"......"I shot the man but I spent a lot of money on the gun".

 

[Cougar Allen]

Moving to the Knife Law forum ...

 

[Jeff Clark]

I don't think that you are likely to have problems unless you have modified the knife in rather overt ways to improve its use as a weapon. For example if you sharpen the backside of your blade near the tip to improve its stabbing penetration you are likelier to get into trouble. This is a general danger area. Almost any tip modification that makes the blade pointier has a risk of being considered a weaponizing improvement. Modifying a knife to make it more concealable may attract attention. I used to take folding fishing knives (sort of like Texas jackknives) and take the side panels off so that I could hide them behind my wallet. That might get you busted. If you were to add a skull cracker point to the butt end of the handle it might become a weapon. I don't think decorative or strengthening modificatons are a serious risk.

 

[Roodog]

Unfortunately, this is not true in all areas. In some states, carrying a knife for the purpose of self defense causes the knife to fall within the statutory category of a "dangerous knife". It depends on the case-law in the particular state.

If I understand correctly, the precedent in NJ and NYC is to interpret knives carried for self-defense as "dangerous knives" in the context of statue, which makes them illegal.

How can someone prove that you are carrying the knife for self defense unless you tell them?
In live in NYC and carry multiple blades for self defense. None are larger than 3 inch blades, fixed and carried on my belt plus a necker. Ive had LEO see them and say nothing. If you tell a cop its for self defense than he may think youre a paranoid weirdo or a tough guy wanna be waiting for trouble and decide you should not be carring the weapon.
If you modify it in a way that invites suspicion (adding brass knuckle type devices or spikes) or in anyway that makes it illegal (making it an auto or double edged) then you might be in hot water. Adding devices which ease the opening of the knife (such a wave type device to open the blade more easily) are not a crime or proof in and of itself that you intend to use it for SD. There are many reasons to need to open a knife quickly, SD is only one of them.

 

[sunnyd]

Moving to the Knife Law forum ...

Thanks for the intelligent decision CA! That is where this will thread will get some good dead reckoning...

 

[bls]

I think you're being a bit over dramatic and paranoid about the whole thing...

What, me, paranoid??? If I'm paranoid, then why do I own only about 40 knives?
Next thing I know you're gonna tell me that I'm overly defensive... NOT ME!!!

 

[Ken C.]

What, me, paranoid??? If I'm paranoid, then why do I own only about 40 knives?
Next thing I know you're gonna tell me that I'm overly defensive... NOT ME!!!

I think you're being overly defensive about the whole thing.

 

[lifter4Him]

Like Collooch, I've carried 3-4" bladed folders in NYC and NJ for the last 25 years and have never had a problem. If I was ever asked by LEO why I was carrying said knife, I would inform him that I use it at my job and also for utility uses. Definitely would not mention anything about self defense, and the truth is that the only time I would use it for self defense is if my life was in mortal danger.

 

[Planterz]

I remember reading an article on potential legal problems of modifying a defensive handgun. Things like barrel ports (to reduce recoil), crisper trigger, etc. The worry was that doing these things would make the gun look like it was made to "kill easier". That doing these things would make the gun "more lethal". And that carrying such a modified weapon somehow makes the owner/shooter more liable for the death of an attacker...even if it was an otherwise completely justified shooting.

Of course, rational, intellegent, and enlightened individuals such as ourselves can see through this bullflop. The reasons for these modifications are to increase accuracy, controllability, and effectiveness of the gun. When you shoot a gun, be for sport or in self defence, you're responsible for every bullet shot. Missing is a bad thing.

But that won't stop a prosecuter from trying to use their "killing machine" argument, nor a bereaved family with a libel suit. The same rationale is behind the "assault weapon" BS like flash suppressors or threaded barrels.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this, except that no matter how stupind the laws are, and no matter how much having to worry about these kind of things seems like BS to you, there'll always be someone looking to fry you for it.