Does it really matter in the end?

C

ChuckB_III

Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
48
Im pretty new to the forum, and I've noticed something that I've been wondering about.
With all this talk of alloy amounts in different steel (OMG, this only contains 0.75% of _______), I was wondering, If the steel is proven to be good, does it really matter what amount of __________ it has, Really matter, I mean to us, the end-consumer and users?:confused:

I mean, of course if the alloy contained a percentage of gold or platinum, it would be worth saying OMG over, (for whatever reason, price, the fact that gold is uber-soft), But, to me, when I buy a knife from a respectable co., and in a well-based steel like 440c or ats-34, I don't care about whether it has ________ amount of __________, I just care about its end-performance.

Just my view. I hope to see what your guys' opinion is on this.
:)
BTW, _________ stand for usual alloying agents in steels (carbon, Chrome, moly., etc) for those of you who are critical like that.
 
It matters if you want it too.
The alloying agents are attributable to the performance of the steel.
Why wouldn't it matter if you cared about knives and what you
were going to use them for?
It's sort of like cars. I don't need to drive every car to make a good
guesstimate on it's end performance. I can look to see what type of
engine it has, mpg, weight, etc. etc.
Same thing with knives. I can look at the steel, edge geometery, hardness, etc. and get a good idea what that knife would be good at.
Alloys are part of that.

It seems you do care (indirectly) about alloys since you like 440C
and ATS-34. Now if you understood alloys then you would know that
if you wanted a steel like ATS-34 but with a finer edge you would
want one with more Cobalt and you would end up with VG-10 or N690.

If you didn't care about alloys then buying a knife in 1095 would
mean the same to you as a knife in ATS-34. Even though they
perform very differently.
 
the alloy content is what determines the properties of the steel. so if you like a certain steel, it's partially because it has 0.75% of _____.
 
I am leaning towards simpler is better. Look I edc a knife for cutting stuff that I happen to run across everyday. Envelopes, rope, twine, branches in my backyard( my wifes out of control black raspberry patch!) etc. etc. I have been using an aus8a and aus6a knives in rotation the past month or so. Havent had to sharpen either one yet. These knives are getting alot of everyday use. Both still cleanly shave hair and zip through paper. So do I need the CPM steel for this? Nope.

Would I need that steel going to to the woods? Nope. I have a really nice Plum hand axe and my CS Master hunter for all else. Does this mean I'll stop buying knives with the latest and greatest steels, nope, but I know I don't need them for what I use them for. Wierd thought process for sure but that what being a knife addict is I guess! keepem sharp
 
I think some people have learned to recognize what relative amounts of certain alloy components do to a blade, carbon hardens the blade Chromium improves corrosion resistance.
 
Keep in mind many members of this forum are knifemakers or serious enthusiasts. To an enthusiast, this sort of discussion is bread and butter. Just as gun enthusiasts spend days discussing just which bullet is best to use on elk-sized game at a range of 175 to 225 yards if fired at a certain velocity.

Get used to it! This is the level of discussion (and knowledge) available on this forum. You will learn about the various steels (and their component metals), blade shapes and even which type of serrations work best in the field.

If you're not concerned about the intimate details, skip to a post that is less detailed.
 
hey, i know about how alloying agents affect steels, (I'm currently studying materials engineering) I'm just saying, when you have standard alloys, like 440c and such, you pretty much know what your getting. So it really doesn't matter
how much carbon or chrome is in it, since you already know how they preform, since it is a certain type, and has set standard on its alloy. (heat treat is a different story) I'm not asking this question from the point of view of a metallurgist or knifemaker, but from the POV of the simple consumer.
Now don't get me wrong, I care about the steels in my knives (I would take cm154 or s30v over 400 series steel pretty much any day), But since I'm buying these sorts of steels, I already know, through a little research, enough to not care about the exact chem. comp, but to look past this and judge what really matters, the way the end product preforms. Its a hard concept to convey with words, at least for me.

Again, just my Opinion
 
Maybe we do get too carried away with steels, but that's what interests many of us. I try to not be a steel snob, but it's hard not to be. Different percentages of this or that does make a difference in performance. That said, you don't have to have ZDP-189, CPM 154CM, S30V etc, etc, to do the everyday work that most of us do...but it's fun to have those steels anyway -- kinda makes me feel all warm and happy.

:)
 
Elements and their amounts change Heat treating properties.
Heat treating properties change the microstructure
Microstructure change properties.

It is not the elements in the steel, the MOST important is how it is heat treated.

Best example about this is INFI. A quick search here will tell you exactly what elements are in it and their amount.

Could I make INFI with the right material knowing the composition? I don't think so. You have to know how to heat treat the steel you have and it must be done right, or even the best steel will break like a crappy chinese knife.
 
Steel matters as you are the one paying for the knife. If you want a particular steel, you should be able to get it.

I find that a company uses good, identifiable steel is more likely to create a good product and not skimp on other aspects of manufacture like heat treating. It might not mean anything to some people, but I'll take A2, S30V, or 1095 (or any other quality blade steel) everytime over mystery stainless.
 
spyder10 said:
Edge geometry is much easier for the end consumer to changed than heat-treat or steel composition.
Click to expand...

Quite true.

My opinion is that past a certain price point, a buyer ends up paying quite a lot for very small improvements in the properties of the steel. For example, S30V (according to Crucible) has 45% better edge retention than 440C. But for the price of an S30V knife, one can usually buy two or more of an equivalent 440C knife. Now, if I were a hunter, I would prefer to spend my money on two 440C skinner/utility-type knives and get 100% more edge retention. Also, when I am not out hunting, I have two knives which can be packed separately, say, one for the car and one for the house.

Steel doesn't matter past a certain point. A knife will perform ideally as long as the user is able to maintain the right kind of edge for the intended task.
 
Not only does composition matter but how it's made .CPM 154 is better than 154CM though both have the same composition. Heat treatment is just as important .For some of us it's not 'just a knife' !!
 
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