Does some steel get sharper than other steels?

L

LimuHead

Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
98
I've tried lots of mid-range steels and thought I was getting them fairly slicey-sharp.

That was until I tried sharpening some of the super steels like s35vn, s110v, and Elmax.

I've never gotten mid-range steels as sharp as I can the new super steels. I'm talking about almost silent, buttery heel-to-tip slices through copy paper - almost as if the paper wasn't there.

Is it just my imagination or do the super steels actually attain a higher keenness of cutting edge than the lesser steels?

My fancy steel knives are the EKT Companion in s35vn (I own 2), a Spyderco Manix II in s110v, and a Zero Tolerance 0801 in Elmax (I just ordered another 0801 in blackwash - should be here tomorrow!).

Thanks for any input.
 
Sharpening skill makes a big difference.
Murray Carter, among others, can shave with a sharpened spoon.
Lots of people have a problem sharpening a particular steel that other people do not.

Some steels can be easier to sharpen to a particular sharpness than others.
Some steels hold an edge much longer while others can't hold it past a few minutes usage.
 
Th e big thing I notice with the super steels is they tend to be harder than the mid grade steels so they won't form as much of a burr or wire edge of the pressure isn't light enough

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk
 
I've noticed the powder steels take a better edge than most steels mfg. by the remelt process. It's like the steel it's self is more highly refined during the manufacturing process and this effects the end product. DM
 
TravisH said:
Sharpening skill makes a big difference.
Murray Carter, among others, can shave with a sharpened spoon.
Lots of people have a problem sharpening a particular steel that other people do not.

Some steels can be easier to sharpen to a particular sharpness than others.
Some steels hold an edge much longer while others can't hold it past a few minutes usage.
Click to expand...

That sums it up pretty well.

So much depends on the quality of manufacture and heat treat, and less on the type of steel itself. For just one example, the best and worst I've seen have both been different maker's versions of 1095. When it's done right, it's a breeze to sharpen up to hair-whittling on the simplest of tools, and it holds that edge beautifully. When it's done wrong, with bad heat treat or sloppy control of impurities, it can be horrible and completely unable to take or hold such edges. As another example, the easiest stainless steel I've found to sharpen to literally shaving/hair-whittling sharpness is one particualar maker's version of 420HC, which is one of those mid-range or even 'low-end' steels that often doesn't get much respect among knife/steel snobs, most of the time. It's an example of a maker finding and refining the best-possible manufacturing process for that particular steel, and then making the most of it.

Due to very abundant, hard carbide content, some steels' edges can be difficult or impossible to refine with inadequate tools. But, so long as the quality and purity are good, the right tools can make all the difference in creating a great edge on them, after which the steel's best attributes (hardness, toughness, purity, fineness of grain/microstructure) will then help it hold such an edge. All of those characteristics are heavily dependant on the quality of heat treat, at a minimum, regardless of the actual steel type.


David
 
  • Like
Reactions: vba
This is a good question and actually is the reason I bought BM Griptilian

my kershaw link (made in USA) has never been hair shaving sharp from day 1 even though it slices paper. (420HC Steel)
HSs0z4d.jpg


whereas my Benchmade Griptilian is extremely sharp and shaves hair on my arm, slices through paper with no effort like a lightsaber

VHmp7jN.jpg


you can see how the chopping board has lines etched into it..its coz of 154CM steel.


now i dont know if its sharpening quality of the manufacture because I have sharpened my kershaw link many times and my sharpening skills are quite decent but the edge is never hair shaving sharp
 
Steel certainly makes a difference, I can tell a lot when sharpening, it's discouraging when trying to get a really good edge on some knives, it makes you feel like 'man I lost it'

A few that really sharpen up extremely well would be;

Murray Carter wharncliff neck knife, just amazing edge I got on this, with that Hitachi white steel center

Chambriard Le Thier's knives they use the 13c26 razor steel and that really takes a great edge. where the Opinel's use 12c27 but also take a pretty good edge too but is classed as lower

I just finished a Reate Horizon C that has S35vn and took a great edge

and my new Fiddleback Forge production Kephart also S35vn took an exceptionally sharp edge, that knife is away being outfitted for a kydex rig from Hale Storm aka Ronnie can't wait for that to return!

But, I'll not list those that did not satisfy as it could just be a bad batch of heat treat or something gone amiss, as it really does matter WHO is doing the heat treat, good steel in the wrong hands = poor results and we all hate that!

G2
 
They can all be sharpened beyond what people have the skill to get them to.

Some steels have properties that make them better sharpening to high sharpness then others.

low alloy, fine grain, high hardness.

If you need a simple answer white steel is the sharpest.

but its not that simple.



The only reason white steel gets so sharp is because of its structure, it is the fastest and lowest effort to shape due to its fine grain, softer fine iron carbides and its overall high hardness. It lowers the bar so anyone can reach high levels of sharpness with low cost simple abrasives.

You can get all other steels just as sharp, but it will take more time( harder carbides to shape) more consistency with angles (no rounding your edge), troubleshooting on stubborn burrs and proper abrasive selection.(diamonds, ceramics, SiC)
There are larger, harder structures (carbides) clumping up the steel matrix that enhance its wear resistance( when the edge breaks down, harder bits are revealed that continue to resist deformation versus the surrounding matrix)

chromium, molybdenum, vanadium, tungsten, niobium are examples of carbides that are formed with the carbon in the steel each with different shapes , hardness and sizes then the surrounding iron matrix.

yet with more time,effort and proper abrasive selection one can match the sharpness of the white steel

but for white steel all ya need is a 1k king and a 6k king to whittle hair. Very fast and impressive.

it holds that edge good as well but it doesn't have the raw wear resistance of blue steel or a fancy PM vanadium steel.

just depends whats more important

wear resistance or high sharpness

endurance or precision

cutting boxs or cutting food.


in the end, the answer is that if you are a better sharpener it doesn't matter. They all get sharp enough to whittle hair and no steel can hold a hair whittling edge behold several cuts.

so remember skill not tools,

but at the end of the day. it would be easier to keep white steel at high sharpness then s110v.



BTW that spoon that Murray shaved with forged hitachi white steel #1 @ 64 hrc
 
Even though I've been seriously trying to learn and master the skill of sharpening it's threads like this that humble me>> in other words I feel like after reading everything posted that I've realistically just merely scratched the surface in the skill of sharpening. Now don't get me wrong because I can get most of the steels I use close to "straight razor sharp" with a lot of patient effort. And I do use stropping techniques which really seem to help a lot.

The one blade steel I've probably used the most in EDC cutting jobs and had the most consistent luck with sharpening plain edges has been VG-10. I can consistently get my Spyderco blades with VG-10 very sharp and I find it more easy to resharpen that many other blade steels I've worked with. It makes an excellent everyday, hard use blade steel IMO.

Now in the supersteel category there are two steels I just love and have great luck obtaining super sharp edges with and those are ZDP-189 and M390. The edge I get on those two blade steels is above and beyond the call of duty. And those two steels seem to hold an edge for me longer than anything else I've used up till now.

This is a most interesting thread and there is certainly a lot to consider. I also think the wide range of different abrasives certainly play a role in optimum sharpening. I've always had superb luck with Spyderco's great ceramic sharpening tools and they seem to produce a consistently great edge on most everything I've sharpened.
 
LimuHead said:
I've tried lots of mid-range steels and thought I was getting them fairly slicey-sharp.

That was until I tried sharpening some of the super steels like s35vn, s110v, and Elmax.

I've never gotten mid-range steels as sharp as I can the new super steels. I'm talking about almost silent, buttery heel-to-tip slices through copy paper - almost as if the paper wasn't there.

Is it just my imagination or do the super steels actually attain a higher keenness of cutting edge than the lesser steels?

My fancy steel knives are the EKT Companion in s35vn (I own 2), a Spyderco Manix II in s110v, and a Zero Tolerance 0801 in Elmax (I just ordered another 0801 in blackwash - should be here tomorrow!).

Thanks for any input.
Click to expand...


The short version is no, the steel type makes no difference in how sharp the edge can be.

The only limitation is the person sharpening and what they are sharpening with.

All of the steels can take a much sharper edge than can be done by human hands.
 
You can get all other steels just as sharp, but it will take more time( harder carbides to shape) more consistency with angles (no rounding your edge), troubleshooting on stubborn burrs and proper abrasive selection.(diamonds, ceramics, SiC)
There are larger, harder structures (carbides) clumping up the steel matrix that enhance its wear resistance( when the edge breaks down, harder bits are revealed that continue to resist deformation versus the surrounding matrix) . . .

yet with more time,effort and proper abrasive selection one can match the sharpness of the white steel

. . .

just depends whats more important

wear resistance or high sharpness

endurance or precision

cutting boxs or cutting food.
. . . in the end, the answer is that if you are a better sharpener it doesn't matter. They all get sharp enough to whittle hair and no steel can hold a hair whittling edge behold several cuts.
Click to expand...

Exactly right. This is what I have found.

so remember skill not tools,
Click to expand...

welllllll . . . an Edge Pro with the right stones etc sure expedites all that "skill". I confess . . . I'm addicted . . . to great tools.

but at the end of the day. it would be easier to keep white steel at high sharpness then s110v.
Click to expand...
That's for damn sure.
 
Now in the supersteel category there are two steels I just love and have great luck obtaining super sharp edges with and those are ZDP-189 and M390. The edge I get on those two blade steels is above and beyond the call of duty. And those two steels seem to hold an edge for me longer than anything else I've used up till now.
Click to expand...

If I want to feel at home and happy as a pig in ______ all I have to do is curl up with one or both of those . . . sharpening or using . . . I've finally decided . . . WHY FIGHT IT ? ? ? ? These are what work (keep that sharp edge I went to all the trouble to make).

Of coarse there are others that are great and some real stinkers (that can get sharp but loose it in the time it takes for gasoline to evaporate off a hot side walk) (don't sneeze the sharpness will fall off in your pocket :grumpy: ) . . . when I want to "come home" it is ZDP-189 and M390.
 
Last edited:
OP here.

Thanks to all who replied!

I've been reading through the responses, mulling over all of the insight given and have come to realize even more starkly that yes, I have to up my sharpening knowledge and skill.

Could a part of it be that super-steels are more forgiving because the higher hardness makes it more difficult to screw things up even if you do several errant passes at any stage of sharpening?

Since reading the responses here I have resharpened (by hand) a 440c blade and got it much closer to my super-steel's edges. I mainly focused on consistency of contact, feel and pressure on the bevel, but also did more passes than I used to. I think the keyword for me is 'focus'.

I am intrigued by the white-steel information and have googled the basics. Where does a person in the USA buy blades with this steel?

Thank you all again!
 
From my experience carbon steels take much keener edge than SS, generally they are easier to sharpen although recently I had quite some difficulties sharpening a K510 blade @ 63,5HRC.

SS generally feel "blunter" so to speak - just my opinion. Not that my S110V and ZDP-189 blades are not screaming/shaving sharp :)
 
LimuHead said:
OP here.

Thanks to all who replied!

I've been reading through the responses, mulling over all of the insight given and have come to realize even more starkly that yes, I have to up my sharpening knowledge and skill.

Could a part of it be that super-steels are more forgiving because the higher hardness makes it more difficult to screw things up even if you do several errant passes at any stage of sharpening?

Since reading the responses here I have resharpened (by hand) a 440c blade and got it much closer to my super-steel's edges. I mainly focused on consistency of contact, feel and pressure on the bevel, but also did more passes than I used to. I think the keyword for me is 'focus'.

I am intrigued by the white-steel information and have googled the basics. Where does a person in the USA buy blades with this steel?

Thank you all again!
Click to expand...

quite the opposite really, by talking about "super steels" we are refering to PM tool/stainless steels with high volume alloy and carbide.

they feel sharp and bite even when they are not because of the carbides. so you have to evaluate your edges better using the "three finger test" and cutting phone book paper or paper towel for cleaness.

they are actually harder to sharpen because they require more consistency freehand to achieve the same sharpness. Also, the stone you use makes a difference.

The vanadium in most PM steels is spread out in the steel matrix in tiny little specks thanks to the PM process usually in high volume with sometimes 20% of the steel is vanadium (s110v, 10v), these small bits are harder then the surrounding steel 85 HRC!

So you have to have the right abrasives to shape an acute apex on super steels.



White steel doesn't need the pm process. It has fine grain and very fine iron carbides that are the softest carbides but also the smallest with a spherical shape

currenty there are no folders avalible unless you buy a higo no kami

there is a us maker that makes neck knives and kitchen knives but they are expensive since they are forged by hand by artisans so you get what you pay for.
 
Most steels will get extremely sharp as long as they have been properly heat treated. This is probably the biggest factor as long as the steel in question has a reasonable amount of carbon.


Whether they hold or not is the next question.
 
DeadboxHero said:
[...] no steel can hold a hair whittling edge [beyond] several cuts.
Click to expand...

This was a big misconception for me for some time. I kept reading people's reviews of high carbide super steels, and they would invariably say they would last some insane amount of time between sharpening. Days. Weeks. Months. I bought all sorts of super steel knives chasing this sort of retention, but was always disappointed.

It turns out many people are just happy with a lower level of sharpness. We all have different expectations of how much force it should take to cut something. (And once I used very thin white paper steel kitchen knives, the amount of force I expected to use to cut something went wayyy down.)
 
Its all about the skill,although my Mora in carbon steel and Inox opinel get hair whittling sharp really fast in just few strokes.Cutting is mostly about geometry,more than sharpness,at least in my book.
 
^yea those sharpen easy but they are too soft and ductile to really compare to other fine grain low alloy steels at higher hardness gotta push the hrc in the low 60s for real performance

t
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top