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I know the Dog Brothers are famous for their full contact stickfighting, but has anybody here trained bladework with them? Any info shared would be appreciated.
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Dog Brothers and the blade
- Thread starter Stormbringer
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I take Guro Crafty's regular course at the Inosanto Academy and I've taken classes in which he substituted for Guro Inosanto when the latter was out of town.
As you note, much of what Marc teaches is stick oriented. However, he has an extensive background in knife under Guro Inosanto, Punong Guro Sulite, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, and others.
Two things that Guro Crafty always emphasizes, in addition to the techniques learned from the other masters, are combat awareness and the relevant footwork. He says that the adrenalin pump of a fight causes most people to get tunnel vision, focus on one attacker, and fail to maintain awareness of their surroundings. This can allow another attacker to easily sneak up and take them out.
One of the drills Guro Crafty teaches students is to move fluidly to music, using triangular Filipino footwork, while holding/manipulating weapons. He will put a dozen people in a small area and force them to constantly move through the swarming crowd, hopefully without letting anyone else tap them on the back. (The inability of many of us to do this fluid movement effectively---on account of what Guro Crafty jokingly refers to as "White Man's Disease"---is the reason I, also jokingly, adopted the "Dances With Knives" handle.)
I wish I could be more specific, but most of my experience with Marc has been in the stick and staff areas.
As you note, much of what Marc teaches is stick oriented. However, he has an extensive background in knife under Guro Inosanto, Punong Guro Sulite, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, and others.
Two things that Guro Crafty always emphasizes, in addition to the techniques learned from the other masters, are combat awareness and the relevant footwork. He says that the adrenalin pump of a fight causes most people to get tunnel vision, focus on one attacker, and fail to maintain awareness of their surroundings. This can allow another attacker to easily sneak up and take them out.
One of the drills Guro Crafty teaches students is to move fluidly to music, using triangular Filipino footwork, while holding/manipulating weapons. He will put a dozen people in a small area and force them to constantly move through the swarming crowd, hopefully without letting anyone else tap them on the back. (The inability of many of us to do this fluid movement effectively---on account of what Guro Crafty jokingly refers to as "White Man's Disease"---is the reason I, also jokingly, adopted the "Dances With Knives" handle.)
I wish I could be more specific, but most of my experience with Marc has been in the stick and staff areas.
Crafty, is excellent with the blade.
As most of you already know, blade work has much in common with other contact weapons. Understanding distance, footwork, closing the gap, body control, understanding the physiological and psychological effects of your weapon on your opponent. All these things the dog brothers really understand. And from everything I've witnessed, Crafty also learns at an almost superhuman rate.
I my opinion he knows how to use a knife and how to teach it.
As most of you already know, blade work has much in common with other contact weapons. Understanding distance, footwork, closing the gap, body control, understanding the physiological and psychological effects of your weapon on your opponent. All these things the dog brothers really understand. And from everything I've witnessed, Crafty also learns at an almost superhuman rate.
I my opinion he knows how to use a knife and how to teach it.
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I also am certain that Guro Denny is an excellent martial artist versant with a variety of weapons, but what about the stick fighting curiculum and how it applies to blades? I have been studying the Dog Brothers tapes, and have adapted a lot of their technique into my stick style, but my teacher keeps telling me that I am getting too wide (our style - Inayan Serrada - is a close and tight blade style). So I am finding that the Dog Brothers principles are awesome for fighting with sticks, against opponents with fencing masks and hocky gloves on, and sometimes elbow and knee pads. But I wonder if I am wrongly trading defensive tightness, and quickness for power, which would be bad for a blade fight, maybe even for a stick fight with no armor at all. Every one is familiar with the knife fighting principle of just making contact with the edge and letting the blade do the work. Nobody that I know of worries about power with the knife, only speed. This must also be true with short swords, bolos, etc, no?
You got it, Steve. In knife and sword fighting, its all about speed, timing, judgement, accuracy, and footwork. As far as the strikes themselves, however, a blade (unlike a stick or other blunt weapon) needs very little power behind it to yield a devastating result. Believe me when I tell you that a good blade will cut through living skin and muscle almost effortlessly.
In unarmored combat, the longer the blade, the more contained your strikes and counters need to be. Big, powerful swings are not only unnecessary, but very dangerous because they leave you open in time and space to counters. The only instances that I can envision where one would employ a powerful swing with big follow-through are those where one needed to cut through one opponent and into another during the flow of the fight.
Best Regards,
Mario
In unarmored combat, the longer the blade, the more contained your strikes and counters need to be. Big, powerful swings are not only unnecessary, but very dangerous because they leave you open in time and space to counters. The only instances that I can envision where one would employ a powerful swing with big follow-through are those where one needed to cut through one opponent and into another during the flow of the fight.
Best Regards,
Mario
Steve, Gaucho is right in regards to motion depending on the weapon.
The style I learned (Latosa Escrima) likes tight structure/minimal cocking, ellipticial hits, and projecting forward pressure. What I've learned is that it's more important that you hit your target, let the energy dissipate to flow into your next hit especially on the move.
Some folks tend to slash, settle, slash and end up rooted to the floor. Being too wide is still kind of a vague description, meaning it could be you're rooted and trading blows instead of moving, check hand is a bit off, your weapon is too light or small to require a wide move, maybe one or more things.
Bladewise especially with the kampilan, keeping it tight but projecting the right amount of energy is pretty much key.
The style I learned (Latosa Escrima) likes tight structure/minimal cocking, ellipticial hits, and projecting forward pressure. What I've learned is that it's more important that you hit your target, let the energy dissipate to flow into your next hit especially on the move.
Some folks tend to slash, settle, slash and end up rooted to the floor. Being too wide is still kind of a vague description, meaning it could be you're rooted and trading blows instead of moving, check hand is a bit off, your weapon is too light or small to require a wide move, maybe one or more things.
Bladewise especially with the kampilan, keeping it tight but projecting the right amount of energy is pretty much key.
Excellent, Smoke
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With an 18"- 20" OAL bolo or bowie, you can choose to fence out beyond largo range utilizing your tip, or fight in middle range using tight circular motions and cutting with the edge(s). Once you get out beyond 22" or so in OAL, however, you are forced into a long range game where you have to be aware of your tip in relation to your opponent at all times. A small movement of the hand will produce a large deflection of your tip. You cannot swing a sword as if it were just a long knife and expect to survive against any but the most rank amateur.
Regardless, blades of these lengths generate so much momentum and have such long edges that they do most of the work for you. You just have to find the hole and get the tip or the edge on target.
Mario
.With an 18"- 20" OAL bolo or bowie, you can choose to fence out beyond largo range utilizing your tip, or fight in middle range using tight circular motions and cutting with the edge(s). Once you get out beyond 22" or so in OAL, however, you are forced into a long range game where you have to be aware of your tip in relation to your opponent at all times. A small movement of the hand will produce a large deflection of your tip. You cannot swing a sword as if it were just a long knife and expect to survive against any but the most rank amateur.
Regardless, blades of these lengths generate so much momentum and have such long edges that they do most of the work for you. You just have to find the hole and get the tip or the edge on target.
Mario
Well, speed is important, but so is power with a blade and this is primarily because of the fact that most of the attacks will be moving through your opponents defense whatever that maybe, usually his arms.
And even if your not going through his defenses as in sentry removal techniques the impact force is part of the disabling effects and helps in the takedown to follow. A big factor that most novice knife fighters forget is that the stunning effect of the striking part of a thrust is important, people do not die right away from the attack so quick follow up attacks are necessary, and the stunning effect of the strike will help during this time.
As a side note I know you guys probably mean timing when you say speed, in other words, speed properly applied. Timing maybe the most important factor in a knife fight, of course accuracy is also up there
in importance.
Hi Tom,
You are correct, of course, that speed alone, without timing and judgement, accomplishs nothing. Plus, in my experience, at higher skill levels- i.e., when both opponents have really good hands- it is the footwork that decides the fight. The fighter with the better footwork is able to create misalignments in time or space that in turn create opportunities to attack or counterattack decisively.
The psychological impact of a thrust sure is a funny phenomenon. It must be wired into our genetic memory from eons of bladed combat. One sees it not only in combat but in sparring as well, where even experienced fighters will continue to fight for a bit after a hard slash across the throat or belly until they recognize and acknowledge the 'killing' strike, while a hard thrust stops them dead in their tracks every time.
Best Regards,
Mario
You are correct, of course, that speed alone, without timing and judgement, accomplishs nothing. Plus, in my experience, at higher skill levels- i.e., when both opponents have really good hands- it is the footwork that decides the fight. The fighter with the better footwork is able to create misalignments in time or space that in turn create opportunities to attack or counterattack decisively.
The psychological impact of a thrust sure is a funny phenomenon. It must be wired into our genetic memory from eons of bladed combat. One sees it not only in combat but in sparring as well, where even experienced fighters will continue to fight for a bit after a hard slash across the throat or belly until they recognize and acknowledge the 'killing' strike, while a hard thrust stops them dead in their tracks every time.
Best Regards,
Mario
A Howl of Greeting:
I'm here in Philly to continue with my Sayoc training and Tom showed me this thread. To the comments made I would add the following:
The first series was based around fighting done in the late 1980s and early 1990s. In the 8-12 years since then I like to think that we have grown in our fighting. Also, the hand, elbow and knee protection since then has lightened considerably. Sometimes Top Dog fights with a baseball batting glove which offers no impact protection at all and serves only to protect the hands from being "cheese-gratered" by the opponent's fencing mask. Many of us use no elbow or knee protection at all. Unfortunately, due to the Ralph Nader effect, it is impossible to get the light fencing masks that we used in the early days. The ones we have from that era are a source of pride to those who use them. But I digress.
The question of the similarities and differences between stick and blade is a good one and perhaps it is hard to answer it definitively. Certainly the answer can depend upon the circumstances as well. I would note that we now begin Gatherings with knife fighting done with aluminum training knives. They don't cut, but the pain and risk of a broken hand or wrist or rib (or a puncture?)are real.
As a teacher, people tend to come to me for stick, double stick, staff, and empty hand. I tend to prefer being low key with regards to knife and teach it in less public contexts.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
PS: Please forgive me the advertisement, but we know have three tapes out in our second series with more to follow shortly.
1) "The Grandfathers Speak": Mostly interviews of some of the pivotal figures in bringing the Filipino arts to America plus some footage fo some of them in action.
2) "A Dog Brotheres Gathering of the Pack": Selected fights from 1995-1999. Put together to show what a day's fighting looks like. Fights only, no instruction.
3) "Combining Stick and Footwork": Like the title says , , ,
If interested, come to www.dogbrothers.com and go to the catalog page. We also have the first series as well- and at a better price.
I'm here in Philly to continue with my Sayoc training and Tom showed me this thread. To the comments made I would add the following:
The first series was based around fighting done in the late 1980s and early 1990s. In the 8-12 years since then I like to think that we have grown in our fighting. Also, the hand, elbow and knee protection since then has lightened considerably. Sometimes Top Dog fights with a baseball batting glove which offers no impact protection at all and serves only to protect the hands from being "cheese-gratered" by the opponent's fencing mask. Many of us use no elbow or knee protection at all. Unfortunately, due to the Ralph Nader effect, it is impossible to get the light fencing masks that we used in the early days. The ones we have from that era are a source of pride to those who use them. But I digress.
The question of the similarities and differences between stick and blade is a good one and perhaps it is hard to answer it definitively. Certainly the answer can depend upon the circumstances as well. I would note that we now begin Gatherings with knife fighting done with aluminum training knives. They don't cut, but the pain and risk of a broken hand or wrist or rib (or a puncture?)are real.
As a teacher, people tend to come to me for stick, double stick, staff, and empty hand. I tend to prefer being low key with regards to knife and teach it in less public contexts.
Woof,
Crafty Dog
PS: Please forgive me the advertisement, but we know have three tapes out in our second series with more to follow shortly.
1) "The Grandfathers Speak": Mostly interviews of some of the pivotal figures in bringing the Filipino arts to America plus some footage fo some of them in action.
2) "A Dog Brotheres Gathering of the Pack": Selected fights from 1995-1999. Put together to show what a day's fighting looks like. Fights only, no instruction.
3) "Combining Stick and Footwork": Like the title says , , ,
If interested, come to www.dogbrothers.com and go to the catalog page. We also have the first series as well- and at a better price.