Dog Brothers Lateral Attacks to the Head

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DancesWithKnives

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Apr 21, 2001
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This afternoon I attended another of Guro Crafty's Dog Bros. Martial Arts classes and learned at least one interesting point from his extensive full contact experience.

Many of the systems to which I have been exposed follow a roof block or a shield/umbrella block with a counter attack that is a straight 90 degree overhead shot. Others put some angle on the followup shot, but it still has a predominantly vertical look. Guro Crafty said that he's seen a fair number of people hit very hard on the top of the skull, with heavy sticks, without disabling effect. In his experience, a more effective follow-up strike is the high lateral shot (parallel with the ground) to the side of the head. His experience is that very few fighters will not have their ability to function seriously impaired by such a shot. Guro Crafty observed that a lot of systems don't seem to emphasize this strike.

I must admit that even though lateral strikes to the side of the head are two of the 25 basic lines of attack found in the Inosanto numbering system, one doesn't see them used a lot. Guro Crafty said these followups are some of Top Dog's signature moves and I have certainly seen him use them at Gatherings. Needless to say, there is important footwork and there are many additional followup strikes that I'm not describing here. I just thought I'd pass on this bit of advice for anyone who is interested.

DPD.
 
He's absolutely right. That reminds me of an old thread on one of these forums where a guy hit another guy over the head with the flat of a shovel, repeatedly and as hard as he could, and it didn't seem to have any effect on him at all. He was convinced the guy was some kind of superman, but he was wrong -- it just isn't an effective attack.

The brain is floating in water (okay, it's not pure water ... saline solution, spinal fluid). When you hit him on the side of the head, hard enough to move his head, his brain is dashed against the side of his skull -- and the side of the skull is convoluted on the inside, much more so than front or back. That's what causes knockouts. There are some other methods of inducing unconsciousness, but whacking him up side the head is the good old reliable method.

Unfortunately it can be fatal or cause serious brain damage. Don't do it unless you have to.

Another way is to break his collarbone; he can recover from that. You can do that with a downward blow, and it's much more effective than striking the top of his head -- that only causes pain.
 
I wouldn't call the vertical strike to the top of the head an ineffective attack as Cougar Allen did, but I'd have to agree that it isn't as effective as a strike to the side of the head for few reasons.

1.) The top-front part of the skull is supposed to be the thickest part.

2.) The way that the skull connects to the spine gives much better allignment from front to back, than back to front or side to side.

3.) The structure of the supporting muscles also seems to protect better from front to back than anything else.

4.) It also seems to me that a vertical strike to the top of the head is easier to see coming, giving you more time to prepare for it (i.e. move off-line a little, partially deflect it or a least brace for it), than a horizontal strike to the side of your head.

Think about the part of the skull used by soccer players to head the ball, the proper head-butt technique and the way football players position their heads when they hit someone.

As for why most systems don't emphasize the horizontal strikes to the head, I think one reason for that is because the vertical and diagonal strikes (especially high to low) are more instinctive and easier to generate power with. Upward and horizontal strikes are more of a learned response require more training to be able to execute with power. High line horizontals to the head are a lot harder to execute correctly and with power than even horizontals along the lower lines. Also, are we sure that the lack of emphasis isn't because of the individuals rather than the system?

As for why you don't see as many horizontal strikes following umbrellas or roof blocks, It think it's because it's easier to redirect a strike traveling along a plane of attack into a strike going in the opposite direction along the same plane, than it is to redirect your weapon such that you're changing the direction and plane of attack at the same time. For example, it's easier to go from an upward diagonal from right hip to left ear (\) to a downward diagonal from left ear to right hip (\), than it is to go from an upward diagonal from right hip to left ear (\) to a horizontal from your left ear to right ear (-). Changing directions and planes of attack at the same time is a more complex tactic and when you get right down to it, your roof block and umbrella are upward diagonal cuts, so the easiest follow up would be a downward diagonal cut.

Keep in mind, however, that you might be able to land that downward diagonal strike to the side of the head/face depending upon your footwork, timing, etc.

I hope this all made sense.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
Dave and Cougar,

The brain isn't really free-floating in the skull, but rapid angular acceleration can cause the brain to twist relative to the brain stem. This torque is what causes concussions/knockouts. This is why punches (and blows from sticks) that land on the jaw or temple are so effective. (It's not because of magic pressure points or "weak spots" in the skull - it's because those surfaces allow you to maximally apply lateral/angular acceleration.)

Because it is head movement that is the critical element, you can see why boxing headgear or fencing masks won't necessarily protect you from getting stunned or knocked out. (Though they obviously do prevent cuts and welts.)

It is always interesting when practical experience (in this case gained from full contact stick fighting) confirms medical information (gained from animal experiments and anatomic/physiologic studies).

If you hit someone hard enough to dent or break the skull or deform the brain locally, you can bruise the brain or cause bleeding under the skull. These are obviously serious injuries, but are NOT the same thing as concussions (thankfully).
 
Shin,

You're correct about the brain being attached. Sorry, if you thought I was saying that it was free-floating.

What I was trying to get at is that when you look at the thickness of the various parts of the skull; the connection between the skull & spine and the supporting musculature in the neck, the head/neck structure seems to offer better protection against skull fractures and movement of the brain inside, from downward vertical or diagonal blows, than from horizontal blows. It seems as though the entire head/neck structure was designed to protect against a downward vertical or diagonal blow more so than against a upward or horizontal blow.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
I dunno about that-
I've seen quite a few people who definitely have brains that are "free-floating!"
:)
 
Originally posted by Kelt
I dunno about that-
I've seen quite a few people who definitely have brains that are "free-floating!"
:)
Click to expand...

No doubt! :D And the best place to find a large number of those people is on the road! :confused: :( :mad: :barf: :rolleyes: (btw, this is my emotional progression during rush hour)

As they say, "Never underestimate the stupidity of people in large numbers."

Dave.
 
Dave,

I think we are both saying similar things with slightly different emphasis.

What I'd like to emphasize is that it is horizontal angular acceleration of the head that will lead to a concussion. Indeed, a blow to the top of the head or diagonally could be predicted to be less effective than a horizontal blow to the skull on this basis, as both stick fighters and boxers have discovered empirically.

People often talk about skull thickness as a factor, but in fact, the difference in bone thickness at different parts of the skull is relatively minimal. Also, as I tried to clarify, skull fractures or brain contusions (from brain squishing against skull) are completely different injuries which (fortunately) are going to be exceedingly rare in "sporting" situations where headgear is being worn.

One might argue that in situations where headgear is not being worn, a vertical blow to the skull with a stick will still be effective: not in terms of causing a concussion, but in terms of splitting the scalp and possibly cracking the skull. Once you put fencing masks or helmets on however, your best bet to stun your opponent would be the horizontal kinds of strikes Crafty advocated. In other words, Crafty's "discovery" might be a phenomenon related to the way the Dog Brothers practice their full contact sparring. Perhaps in the "old days" the escrima masters found vertical blows just as effective as horizontal ones in real combat. (Just speculating here.)

I agree with your assessment of the musculature and architecture of the neck relative to the head, which clearly is better at absorbing linear forces along the axis of the neck (that is vertical) as opposed to angular acceleration in the horizontal plane.
 
Hi guys. Two questions from an admitted FMA neophyte:

From the umbrella/roof block, wouldn't an abanico be an efficient way of attacking the side of your opponent's head on a more or less horizontal plane?

Also, what about the effects of the chin jab/uppercut on the brain? Anybody have any medical info or practical experience/observations on this type of strike?

Thanks a bunch,

Karl
 
Karl, an abaniko would be an efficient shot. There has been discussion concerning such a follow up shot, some feel the speed of abanico falls behind in effectiveness compared to a horizontal or underhand power hit. I was taught that the most effective roof is actually an inside hit.

One of my teachers liked to do a horizontal backhand on the high plane while retreating and quite honestly it felt useless to try and block it.
 
Shin, you are correct about skull thickness. I mentioned it in reference to skull fractures, but wasn't clear about it. Based upon what I've read, been told by people in the medical field and experienced first hand, skull thickness has little to do with concussions. I suspect that you're correct in your speculation about the old days of stick fighting without headgear too.

Karl, an abaniko/witik would be viable follow up, but more so if there's no headgear. Even a fencing mask will take a good deal off of an abaniko/witik, which is why a lot of people who spar full-contact favor the power shots.

Smoke, I like the high, horizontal back-hand too as a cover when break off an exchange. It's a nice way to make sure that they don't immediately pursue you, but if they do pursue and don't see it coming ... :eek: :D

My favorite follow up to a roof block is a punyo! :D

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton
 
With regard to the question about whether the fencing masks used at Gatherings were what made the high lateral strikes more effective than the overheads, I'll ask Crafty. I got the impression that he had seen some unarmored matches here and/or in the Philippines, but I may have been reading too much into his remarks. Best thing to do is inquire.

DPD.
 
I would have to agree with torque being a major factor in disrupting your brain. When I was mugged a long time ago, I was hit with a straight punch to the side of my face. Caused my head to do a 180 and imediatly fall to my knees, did not feel any pain though, probably due
to adrenaline.
Also don't forget about the inner-ear uses fluid to maintain your sense of balance.

Once in tech school for AF security police, I turned a corner and ran right into a plywood overhang. It hit high on my forehead, some immediate pain but I did not fall down. Many years later I saw a woman take a blow also high on forehead, from a 55 gallon drum sliding off a rack. She was also not knocked down, but like me got some nice stitches.

my 2cents
 
I don't think of veritical strikes as strikes to the top of head but strikes to the face, which has much more stopping power. With a heavy weapon, like a lead pipe a strike to the head is ok.

As for horizontal strikes to the head, I've had teachers that say they are no good because they can be easily ducked under. But I like to use them as power strikes to make space or room.
 
The point about ducking is well taken. I once talked with a guy who fought the Phillipine national champion (in his weight class) a few years ago at the world championships. He said he threw what he thought was his best lightning-fast high lateral strike and the guy just bobbed under it like a slow training swing! He said he knew right there he was in deep trouble. Ended up losing the match but gaining a great experience.

Since Guro Crafty was recommending it as a very quick follow-up shot, he probably felt that the other guy would not be quick enough to duck it most of the time----or that it would create other opportunities as noted above.

DPD.
 
This afternoon I asked Guro Crafty whether the fencing helmets were a significant factor in his opinion that lateral strikes to the head are more effective than vertical or slightly angled strikes. He responded that the light fencing masks they originally used were so flimsy that they made no difference. They didn't offer protection to either the side or top of the head. The only thing they prevented was shots to the face. Crafty agreed with the observation of Bukidnon that a vertical strike that catches the face is very effective. The problem is that estimating range correctly is critical to landing a vertical face shot. Less critical in landing a strike to the side of the head.

With regard to the heavier fencing "helmets" now used, Guro Crafty thought that the protection against vertical and lateral shots was pretty comparable.

When asked if he had seen people hit on the top of the head without helmets/masks, Guro Crafty not only responded positively, but said he had personal experience with such a blow. Apparently he was mixing it up with a guy in a full-contact fight and in the course of struggle his helmet was knocked off just as the guy landed a massive overhead on the top of Crafty's skull. It was such a hard and unprotected blow that the other guy was worried about a serious injury and asked if Crafty was OK. He responded that he was fine and kept on fighting without interruption. He said he felt a large impact, but it didn't disrupt his mental functions. With lateral blows, on the other hand, he can recall being "taken out" by at least Top Dog (while wearing a helmet).

To demonstrate the effect, Guro Crafty was kind enough to smack each of us on the side of the head behind the ear with his open hand. By the way, my classmates and I thank you guys for getting me to ask this question! In any event, even the relatively modest blow made my eyes do some odd things for a second or two. It was slightly disorienting and I could easily see how a stronger blow---especially delivered with a stick instead of a hand--- would put you down.

DPD.
 
Karl wrote:
>>From the umbrella/roof block, wouldn't an abanico be an efficient way of attacking the side of your opponent's head on a more or less horizontal plane?<<

Efficient?... yeah. But the power of an albaniko pales in comparison to a monster backhand. The albaniko is kinda like a jab, and a two handed backhand is like a haymaker that comes from Philly.

DPD... I agree that the backhand is too often neglected in FMA... something I'm trying to remedy in my on training. What was teaching progression like for training the backhand? Did you work the backhand out of combinations (e.g. - jab, redondo, backhand)... by itself... against a tire/heavy bag?

Thanks!
~Kev
 
Kev,

Guro Crafty has students work the lateral head strike (from both the backhand and forehand sides) as a part of combinations of blocks and strikes. He especially emphasizes good footwork, at which I'm by far the weakest. Since I've taken only a few of his classes, I haven't participated in power training with him. He's still trying to get us to perform the movements correctly! However, other instructors at the Inosanto Academy have students do a lot of work on heavy bags (full length, 200 lb jobs) and a tire stack. After class on Friday evenings there's also open time when people can spar, train for competitions, do strength training, etc.

DPD.
 
One advantage to lateral strikes is strikes to the side of the neck.
Which can result in a knock out do to rapid drop in blood pressure because of barro recepters located in the cartiod.
I have dropped many (25)guys with this approach although many were punches not stick strikes.
Although the collar bone break is great, I have also seen that work well.
 
Guro Tom,

Although people often cite the "baroreceptor effect" as an explanation for pressure point strikes (ST-9 in particular) and blows to the neck under the mandible, I believe it (the explanation) to be a myth.

Let me say up front that I do NOT dispute the efficacy of the technique and I believe 100% that you have dropped people with the shot that you described. I am simply suggesting that the reason why the technique works is other than "lore" would have it.

[long post]

Indeed, there are pressure receptors in the carotid bulb (lying beneath the angle of the mandible) that respond to increases in blood pressure by reducing heart rate and blood pressure. And indeed, in susceptible individuals, even light pressure over the area can cause enough of a blood pressure drop to cause unconsciousness/fainting. (Pressure as light as shaving over the area or wearing too tight a collar have been described as causing the effect.) Individuals with "carotid hypersensitivity" are usually men over the age of 50 with advanced atherosclerotic disease however.

One might argue that in "normal" people (young, healthy) that you could induce the same "baroreceptor effect" if you caused a high enough pressure increase in the carotid bulb (as by hitting it with a fist or stick). In other words, you might hypothetically cause a drop in blood pressure and heart rate in a person with "normal" carotid arteries.

To me, a couple of things argues against that (otherwise reasonable) hypothesis.

First of all, in "real life" carotid hypersensitivity you can document a slowing of heartbeat (to the point of asystole - no heart beat) and a drop in blood pressure which leads to a classic faint. The face turns "gray", the skin becomes cold and clammy, and the person passes out over the course of a few seconds. Even with complete cessation of heartbeat, it may take up to 5 to 7 seconds for unconsciousness to occur. By contrast, in most cases of people being dropped by a blow to the neck (as in pressure point strikes) unconsciousness occurs IMMEDIATELY. That is you hit them in the neck, and they drop or are stunned right away. (I am not sure what your experience has been.) So the descriptions I've heard of this kind of blow don't really sound like what you would expect from a drop in blood pressure.

Secondly, Dillman and some of his blackbelts did an experiment where they performed ST-9 knockouts on subjects while simultaneously recording EEG, blood pressure, EKG, blood oxygenation, and other parameters. This was done at the hospital I work at under the supervision of one of my attendings. No consistent effect was seen on any of these parameters - again suggesting that the efficacy of the techniques does not lie in an effect on blood pressure or heart rate.

Thus, my belief is that a blow to the side of the neck does not work by a "baroreceptor effect". Instead, I suspect that concussion is the mechanism behind its effectiveness. It seems strange to think that a blow to the neck could cause a concussion since intuitively people think that only a blow to the head should do this, but keep in mind that it is well documented that concussions occur because of a "mismatch" between the brain and the brainstem caused by twisting or torque. A blow to the head is not necessary as long as there is relative motion between the head and the neck.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the issue. Of course your experience is "real life" whereas mine is purely intellectual/theoretical, so I could be way off base.

p.s. Thanks for your patience with me on the range at sama sama. I'd never shot before (I'm sure it was obvious) but I really appreciated your help.
 
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