Dollar store files

K

Kevin the grey

Joined
Aug 26, 2005
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I can get a set of four small triangular files at a dollar store .They are made by vector . While to me they are definitely worth more than the dollar charged they are still cheapos . These would be perfect in size for antler handled awls and maybe a bodkin or two . My question is , a file must be made of reasonably good metal . I want to anneal them ,modify them into the shape I need and re-treat them into serviceably durable tools . Am I dreaming in technicolor ? I don,t have the money or want to take an expensive file in good working order and destroy its original value just to make an awl .I do want to gain the experience working with small projects before I go onto larger projects so this idea seems a good one to me .What do you think ?
 
Kevin,

It's "caveat emptor" when it comes to cheap files. Not all, but certainly a few, are made of inferior steel that's been case hardened so the teeth will at least do a little cutting. A well meaning friend gave me a couple of cheap files, intending that I should make her a kitchen knife from one of them. I was able to bend both files with my bare hands into roughly a horseshoe shape, without either one of them snapping. A "brittle hard" file of good W1 tool steel would have snapped like a dry twig if bent any real amount.

That's the bad news, the good news is there's a vast difference between "cheap" and inexpensive when it comes to files. Very good quality files can be had very inexpensively by checking flea markets, swap meets, yard sales, antique shops, et cetera. If it's got made in U.S.A. marked anywhere on it, it's good to go, and the older the better. Don't discount Swiss files, or those made in England, Italy, Germany, etc., if you run across one, they're made from excellent steel as well.

Good luck and have fun
Sarge
 
Kevin,

I agree with Sarge; some files are good steel (most Nicholsons are 1095) others are case hardened junk.

If you decide to go the file route put one in a vise and bend it. It should break easily and with very little bend. Take a close look at the grain structure too; in a thicker file, that is a fast quenching steel, the center should be pearlite (the grain will look much larger and more metalic). As a side note, use the grain in the file as the bench-mark for grain in your heat treated knives.

It's my personal recommendation to get steel of a known type; you'll know exactly what you have, there are heat treating tables available, you'll be able to reproduce the results, the steel will come annealed, and you'll invest far less time in acquiring a good supply.

It will be much easier for you to file annealed steel than a hardened file and there are many steel that are very easy to heat treat yourself with very limited resources. If you're concerned about heat treating on your own there should be some local blacksmiths or knife makers who would be more than willing to HT your blade. If you can't find anyone local, send it to me and I'll take care of it.

I know there is always a draw to using found materials, but there is nothing worse than spending hours of your time, getting your hopes up, only to see them dashed. The only smart thing I've done with regards to knife making (or anything for that matter...beyond marrying my wife ;)) is I have always used known steel.

Heres a link to a materials supplier page http://www.internetbusinesslinks.net/SupplierList.html I suggest starting with some o1 or 5160, both are easy to work, easy to heat treat, and make great blades. You should also check ebay for small quantities of o1; you can get a few feet for under $10.

If you need any help feel free to email; I'm glad to offer any advice I can.

Matt
 
Thank you for teaching us, Sarge and Longrifle. I learn all the time in HI forum from knowledgable folks giving without a thought.




munk
 
By the way, let me look around the shop and see if I have any small pieces I can send you.

I don't use much 5160 any more and gave away all of the smaller stuff. If you don't mind paying shipping I can send you a big piece of 5160, might be too big for what you're planning on making though.

~M
 
So if I take a good file and bend it it will break instead of giving ? I,ll do a little test as there are four in the package . I appreciate the info/steel offer and will take you up on it . As far as steel is concerned ? Unless it is close to the bodkin/awl shape that I want I can proabably scare up some good steel up here . I have a large file that is already slated for a flint striker and a Seax as well . I am very innovative as opposed to skilled in metal working . My forge for the moment consists of a propane burner I want to use to anneal . I,m working on constructing a truck brake drum forge . That proabably won,t see much use before spring so for the moment I am sticking with stock removal .
If worse comes to worse with the dollar files I can use them for fileing bone . They should be tough enough to do that .
 
Kevin,

Yes, the file should break with very little bend. Actually, the file shouldn't bend at all and it should snap with ease.
 
You know, I would hate to see a discussion of khukuri-related tools get lost to posterity because it was posted in the cantina and later pruned. As I see it the accessory tools are part of a khukuri and suitable fodder for the main forum, where the discussion will be (presumably) preserved.

I'll move it over.
 
LongRifle said:
Kevin,

Yes, the file should break with very little bend. Actually, the file shouldn't bend at all and it should snap with ease.
Click to expand...

Exactly how I make quick and easy fire steels to hand out to folks in my flint and steel fire making classes. I just take rusty old 12" files, chuck 'em in a vise, and tap 'em with a hammer to snap off 4" sections. Then it's a simple matter to grind off any sharp edges/corners and remove all the file teeth along one edge. Bada boom, bada bing, fire steels for around 30 cents apiece. Each student gets his/her own fire starting kit to take home and practice their skills with, and no "heating and beating" necessary.;)

Sarge

edited to add: Grind the teeth off the edges on both sides of one of those 4" file sections, put one edge to the belt sander, etc., and bring it to a high polish. Now you have a firesteel that will throw hot sparks and start many fires. You also have a chakma (polished edge) that will easily burnish the edge on even the hardest khuk. One twelve inch file will yield three, they take only 20 minutes or less to make, and you can even mount a handle on the section that still has the tang attached. Make one for yourself, and give the rest to friends, they'll thank you.
 
Howard Wallace said:
You know, I would hate to see a discussion of khukuri-related tools get lost to posterity because it was posted in the cantina and later pruned. As I see it the accessory tools are part of a khukuri and suitable fodder for the main forum, where the discussion will be (presumably) preserved.

I'll move it over.
Click to expand...

I never thought of it as Kukuuri related and If I really look at it there is a definite paralell if not a direct relation between the two subjects . These files were going to be deer antler handled leather working tools and also a bodkin which could be called in this instance an edgeless dagger .There is more to learn about the Kukuuri and its attending implements which bears investigation .
 
Kevin the grey said:
I never thought of it as Kukuuri related and If I really look at it there is a definite paralell if not a direct relation between the two subjects . These files were going to be deer antler handled leather working tools and also a bodkin which could be called in this instance an edgeless dagger .There is more to learn about the Kukuuri and its attending implements which bears investigation .
Click to expand...

An awl is one of the traditional implements carried in the khukuri sheath. The YCS comes with an awl, as do some of the other HI offerings with the old style sheath and traditional small tool pack.
 
Awls are useful implements,
Besides their obvious use in punching holes, they can be used to dig out splinters, clean out the bowl of your pipe, and even be employed like a cocktail toothpick at the feast table (forks weren't used in the middle ages but many a large dagger/dirk came with an accessory knife for eating, and a bodkin/awl like tool called a "pricker").

Look where the accessory knives go in your khuk scabbard. The spaces between the leather loops for karda and chakma form two small triangular openings,into which an awl will easily slide. Make yourself an awl with a 3-4" bit out of an old chainsaw file, etc., mount a handle of wood or antler, and insert it into your scabbard between your karda and chakma. Voila', you've just added a useful addition to your "outdoor tool kit".:D

Certainly not a new idea, we've had lengthy discussions on this topic before in the Cantina, just thought I'd toss it out for the benefit of any new folk.

Sarge
 
Good move by Howard.

We often have discussions that circle back to khuks from far flung environs.



munkl
 
I found two chainsaw files and tested them both in a vise . I put 3/4 of an inch in the vise and applied pressure . One bent considerably before breaking .It almost looked like a coathanger after opening a car door . The other file made in Ontario which is just down the road from me . It curved slightly without bending and snap, broke cleanly without a bend in either piece . Its going to make me a nice awl .
I may try to find a triangular file to make myself a nice bodkin . I,ll start with the chainsaw file for now .
 
Kevin the grey said:
I found two chainsaw files and tested them both in a vise . I put 3/4 of an inch in the vise and applied pressure . One bent considerably before breaking .It almost looked like a coathanger after opening a car door . The other file made in Ontario which is just down the road from me . It curved slightly without bending and snap, broke cleanly without a bend in either piece . Its going to make me a nice awl .
I may try to find a triangular file to make myself a nice bodkin . I,ll start with the chainsaw file for now .
Click to expand...

Good stuff Kevin, now take the file that bent over to the grinder. Grind off the hardened outer skin of case hardening, and you'll find the grinding sparks produced by the remaining piece of metal are not nearly as bright and sparkly as the one's produced by grinding the file that snapped cleanly. That is due to the difference in carbon content. Spark pattern testing is just one more way of identifying high carbon steel so you don't waste your time on low carbon or so called "mild steel".

Sarge
 
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