Off Topic don't go too hard on 420

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i have 2 remington knives (cheap ones in the 30-50$) range then i made the mistake of not researching the steel. apparently it was 420j2 and there were 2 threads specifically of people saying its the worst steel ever.

a clarification: i don't feel there's something wrong with the steel. both of them have good aesthetics so this was the bait that reeled me in.
i feel like i can do much better than 420 at 30$, however it cuts well and it satisfies my knife needs.
 
420J isn't the worst, but it's not much better than the worst. For $30-50 you can find plenty of knives with 8Cr13MoV at the lowest and 9Cr14 and the Sandvik steels (12C27, 13C26, 14C28N) or even D2 at the higher end of that price range. Heat treat is as important as the steel used, and I don't know who made your Remingtons (the name is licensed and has been made by many different companies over the years), so the heat treat may or may not be questionable. With 420J though, you're going to have a very soft steel that doesn't hold an edge well, but is at least easy to resharpen.

How does it compare to 420A?

I think you mean 440A (I'm not aware of a 420A). Better than 420J, but still soft and low-end.
 
If it's good enough for you then I'm happy for you.

But it's certainly not good enough for me and many other harder users as it's prone to rolling, chipping, breaking and can be a burden to sharpen since it's soft and maluable.

It is low end for a reason. Not absolute worst, but it's far from best.
 
A lot of Buck knives with 420HC (USA made) in that price range that are a noticeable step up from 420J (China made) as well. Not to knock any other budget steels, but since one company does both it was an easy reference/comparison.
 
A lot of Buck knives with 420HC (USA made) in that price range that are a noticeable step up from 420J (China made) as well. Not to knock any other budget steels, but since one company does both it was an easy reference/comparison.
Kinda unfair to compare Buck with the rest of the companies that are just vomiting out 420-knives.
 
Buck is making some Remington knives now. Maybe they aren’t as bad as you think they are.
 
420j2 is good stuff for a dive knife and cutting soft things in that kind of environment.

However, I have seen and experienced how it dulls really quickly once the edge hits something hard.
 
If it's good enough for you then I'm happy for you.

But it's certainly not good enough for me and many other harder users as it's prone to rolling, chipping, breaking and can be a burden to sharpen since it's soft and maluable.

It is low end for a reason. Not absolute worst, but it's far from best.
Ummm ... are you referring to 420J2, 440A, or?

I have a couple offshore produced Buck 37x and 38x series with 420J2 blades. Buck did get the heat treat and edge geometry right. The edges on mine last at least as long with "heavy" use as my pre 2004 Old Timer 6OT and 7OT with "Schrade +" 440A blades.

Out of curiosity, what blade steels do you think were used in folders back in the mid 1800's to the 1970's, before the "modern" one hand openers, flippers, and the "advanced" steels were invented or used in a knife? (a hint: 440A if stainless (post 1900 or so), and 1095 if carbon steel).
The good folks from the mid 1800's (and long before) to at least the 1960's used their knives a heck of a lot "harder" than the average "hard user" of today.

The 400 series of steels (and the 10xx carbon steels) are not known for chipping.
You must have it confused with the super hard latest and greatest steel.

The harder the blade, the more prone it is to chipping.
Yes, the (now) low end steels can roll the edge. So what? Stropping on a dry strop restores the edge. No stone needed. People can (and have) used their leather belt, and boot toe or shank as a strop.

Any blade regardless of steel can (and will) break given enough abuse. If not used to pry, turn screws, beat through a branch or tree trunk, but to cut and slice, like a knife is designed for the blade will never break from use.
There are a lot of 100 plus year old knives in the world with the "soft and ductile blades" you complain about, ("ductile" means it will bend before it breaks/fails, by the way. not that it is brittle.) that don't have a broken blade or blades. (yeah, a few have been sharpened "to tooth picks".)
Back in the day, a quality pocket knife was expected to last 2 to 3 years before it was worn out and needed replaced.
Like I said, they routinely used their knives a heck of a lot harder out on the farm, in the factories, shops, on construction sites, fishing, camping, hunting, etc. with knife tasks (cutting/slicing, peeling critters ... no batoning to split fire wood, that was a job for the axe, hatchet, or froe) than we would even think of doing today.

A knife was a tool to them back in the day, not pocket jewelry or a "worry stone". They didn't only use it to open mail, or fondle it, because they were worried about the cost and/or rarity, or "it's too pretty to use." since it might get scratched or stained, might need sharpened after, or anything/everything else that would "ruin the resale value". I doubt they even thought of resale value.

The "soft" steels have been used for several hundreds of years (ok ... the stainless steels not quite so long, since they were only invented in the 1890's or in first 10 years of the 1900's) not because they are inexpensive, (for a major manufacturer like CASE, the cost of the steel is negligible, perhaps as much as pennies per knife, not dollars per knife, because they buy several tons at a time, getting a better price on the steel, and save on shipping.
I can tell you (from experience in the trucking industry) for a fact that it costs just as much to ship 100 pounds by truck as it does 40,000 pounds.
The rate per mile, is about the same. (short haul runs cost more per mile than a long haul run.)
 
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If your knives work for you, that is all that matters.

But yes, I think you can do better for $30 and certainly at the $50 price point.

I would argue that there are two types of 420HC. Bucks and everyone else's. Mr Bos and his crew get the most out of 420HC with their heat treat. If I have to buy 420HC, it would be a Buck.
 
It's all relative. A lot depends on what you do with it.

In this price range, I'm guilty of railing against 8Cr13Mov. The thing is, 8Cr13Mov is fine for some people relative to their regular level of use. The issue comes when looking relative to price and other steels on the market. Personally, I think 8Cr13Mov is okay around twenty bucks in the current market. As others have mentioned, too many better steels have been creeping down into that $30-50 price range. You've got 9Cr18Mov with a decent heat treatment from companies like Civivi and Real Steel. You've got Acuto 440 from Tangram. You've got a few companies using 12C27 or 14C28N. You've also got a ton of options in Chinese D2. All of those represent a decent step up from 8Cr13Mov.

To put things in context, I feel like 8Cr13Mov was a better deal before these better choices were on the table. I feel like once upon a time, 8Cr13Mov was the better option to steels like AUS-6 or the 420 in question here.
 
It's all relative. A lot depends on what you do with it.

In this price range, I'm guilty of railing against 8Cr13Mov. The thing is, 8Cr13Mov is fine for some people relative to their regular level of use. The issue comes when looking relative to price and other steels on the market. Personally, I think 8Cr13Mov is okay around twenty bucks in the current market. As others have mentioned, too many better steels have been creeping down into that $30-50 price range. You've got 9Cr18Mov with a decent heat treatment from companies like Civivi and Real Steel. You've got Acuto 440 from Tangram. You've got a few companies using 12C27 or 14C28N. You've also got a ton of options in Chinese D2. All of those represent a decent step up from 8Cr13Mov.

To put things in context, I feel like 8Cr13Mov was a better deal before these better choices were on the table. I feel like once upon a time, 8Cr13Mov was the better option to steels like AUS-6 or the 420 in question here.

i have a knife with 8Cr13Mov. for me its harder to sharpen than 420J2, however if you claim that its stronger and better than im willing to make the compromise and never touch 420J2 ever again.
also i have 1 knife with 7Cr13 which i know nothing about and its hard to find information about.. however from just generally using it for EDC tasks it feels really good. i think my SOG sideswipe with 7Cr13 is the best knife i own purely because SOG has good quality control
 
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Ummm ... are you referring to 420J2, 440A, or?

I have a couple offshore produced Buck 37x and 38x series with 420J2 blades. Buck did get the heat treat and edge geometry right. The edges on mine last at least as long with "heavy" use as my pre 2004 Old Timer 6OT and 7OT with "Schrade +" 440A blades.

Out of curiosity, what blade steels do you think were used in folders back in the mid 1800's to the 1970's, before the "modern" one hand openers, flippers, and the "advanced" steels were invented or used in a knife? (a hint: 440A if stainless (post 1900 or so), and 1095 if carbon steel).
The good folks from the mid 1800's (and long before) to at least the 1960's used their knives a heck of a lot "harder" than the average "hard user" of today.

The 400 series of steels (and the 10xx carbon steels) are not known for chipping.
You must have it confused with the super hard latest and greatest steel.

The harder the blade, the more prone it is to chipping.
Yes, the (now) low end steels can roll the edge. So what? Stropping on a dry strop restores the edge. No stone needed. People can (and have) used their leather belt, and boot toe or shank as a strop.

Any blade regardless of steel can (and will) break given enough abuse. If not used to pry, turn screws, beat through a branch or tree trunk, but to cut and slice, like a knife is designed for the blade will never break from use.
There are a lot of 100 plus year old knives in the world with the "soft and ductile blades" you complain about, ("ductile" means it will bend before it breaks/fails, by the way. not that it is brittle.) that don't have a broken blade or blades. (yeah, a few have been sharpened "to tooth picks".)
Back in the day, a quality pocket knife was expected to last 2 to 3 years before it was worn out and needed replaced.
Like I said, they routinely used their knives a heck of a lot harder out on the farm, in the factories, shops, on construction sites, fishing, camping, hunting, etc. with knife tasks (cutting/slicing, peeling critters ... no batoning to split fire wood, that was a job for the axe, hatchet, or froe) than we would even think of doing today.

A knife was a tool to them back in the day, not pocket jewelry or a "worry stone". They didn't only use it to open mail, or fondle it, because they were worried about the cost and/or rarity, or "it's too pretty to use." since it might get scratched or stained, might need sharpened after, or anything/everything else that would "ruin the resale value". I doubt they even thought of resale value.

The "soft" steels have been used for several hundreds of years (ok ... the stainless steels not quite so long, since they were only invented in the 1890's or in first 10 years of the 1900's) not because they are inexpensive, (for a major manufacturer like CASE, the cost of the steel is negligible, perhaps as much as pennies per knife, not dollars per knife, because they buy several tons at a time, getting a better price on the steel, and save on shipping.
I can tell you (from experience in the trucking industry) for a fact that it costs just as much to ship 100 pounds by truck as it does 40,000 pounds.
The rate per mile, is about the same. (short haul runs cost more per mile than a long haul run.)
Folders?
I'm not talking about folders, I don't even own a single folder or care about folders.
My most used knife is Recon Tanto in SK-5 that I abuse the hell out of and is schratched up and beat up really well by now, SK-5 isn't very hard steel but from my experience it outperforms anything from 400 series.
I need a knife to use to chop down bushes, sometimes plastic pipes, punch holes on bucket bottoms to cut the bottom out, punch holes on sheets of plastic or cut rubber with, and I sometimes chop pork ribs or turkey bones. I use that knife for basically everything, and anything in 400 series was chipped, rolled, bent or broken very fast simply from using it to cut ribs or bones, let alone other stuff I do with this. I never experienced rolls or chips, and the tip of the knife is also as good as new, not sure is that because of the steel or geometry.
 
I ruined several knives in 400 series and 8cr...9cr... and other Chinese steels.
They are OK for light users like slip joints or folders but it's just not an adequate steel for a fixed blade knife from my experience.
 
420J isn't the worst, but it's not much better than the worst. For $30-50 you can find plenty of knives with 8Cr13MoV at the lowest and 9Cr14 and the Sandvik steels (12C27, 13C26, 14C28N) or even D2 at the higher end of that price range. Heat treat is as important as the steel used, and I don't know who made your Remingtons (the name is licensed and has been made by many different companies over the years), so the heat treat may or may not be questionable. With 420J though, you're going to have a very soft steel that doesn't hold an edge well, but is at least easy to resharpen.



I think you mean 440A (I'm not aware of a 420A). Better than 420J, but still soft and low-end.
Exactly. 440A. But if we're talking about a traditional folder that is a daily carry and used primarily to cut string, rope, and packages, what's wrong with it if it sharpens easily? Most slip joints are not subjected to hard use anyway.
 
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